Discussion:
Why do so many people believe the pessimistic, nihilistic, and depressive Darwinist view?
(too old to reply)
Sound of Trumpet
2010-05-13 11:13:51 UTC
Permalink
The Effect of Darwinism on Morality and Christianity

by Jerry Bergman, Ph.D.


It sometimes is claimed that one can be both a Darwinist and a
Christian (Miller). Others argue that religion and Darwinism are
incompatible because they are separate fields that should not be
intermixed (Gould). In fact, the Darwinism worldview leads directly to
certain clear moral and religious teachings about the origin, purpose,
and ultimate meaning of life that are diametrically opposed to the
Christian, Jewish, and Islamic faiths. The problem is that Darwinists,

can in good conscience say at one moment that they do not deal
with God or religion, and then in the next breath make sweeping
pronouncements about the purposelessness of the cosmos (Johnson, p.
118).

Some scientists are more open and forthright than Miller and Gould,
some even concluding that "there is something dishonestly selfserving"
in the tactic claiming that "science and religion are two separate
fields" (Dawkins, p. 62). Most evolutionists fully understand what is
at stake in the creation/evolution controversy. Futuyma admits that
anyone who "believes in Genesis as a literal description of history"
holds a "worldview that is entirely incompatible with the idea of
evolution . . ." (pp. 12-13). Futuyma then claims that Darwinists
insist on "material, mechanistic causes" for life but the "believer in
Genesis" can look to God for explanations.

Historians have documented meticulously the fact that Darwinism has
had a devastating impact, not only on Christianity, but also on
theism. Many scientists also have admitted that the acceptance of
Darwinism has convinced large numbers of people that the Genesis
account of creation is erroneous, and that this has caused the whole
house of theistic cards to tumble:

If the Bible was wrong in the very first chapter of Genesis, then
the veracity of the entire enterprise was called into question.
Evolution was not just a scientific idea, it was a bombshell . . .
welcomed by atheists, feared by theists (Raymo, p. 138).

As a result of the widespread acceptance of Darwinism, the Christian
moral basis of society was undermined. Furthermore Darwin himself was
"keenly aware of the political, social, and religious implications of
his new idea. . . . Religion, especially, appeared to have much to
lose . . ." (Raymo, p. 138).

Numerous scientists have noted that one result of the general
acceptance of Darwinism was acceptance of the belief that humans "are
accidental, contingent, ephemeral parts of creation, rather than lords
over it" and humans are not "the raison d'etre of the universe" as all
theistic religions teach (Raymo, p. 163).

The Darwinism belief that humans (and all living things) are nothing
more than an accident of history, "cosmically inconsequential bundles
of stardust, adrift in an infinite and purposeless universe" is a
belief that is now "widely embraced within the scientific
community" (Raymo, p. 160). Darwinism was a major factor in causing
many eminent scientists to conclude, in the words of Nobel laureate
Steven Weinberg, that the "more the universe seems comprehensible, the
more it also seems pointless" (p. 154). Darwinism teaches "that our
lives are brief and inconsequential in the cosmic scheme of
things" (Raymo, p. 110), and that life has no ultimate purpose because
there is no heaven, hell, or afterlife and "nothing we know about life
requires the existence of a disembodied vital force or immaterial
spirits, or a special creation of species" (Raymo, p. 42). Raymo
concludes:

Everything we have learned in science since the time of Galileo
suggests that the [universe is] . . . oblivious to our fates [and]
that the grave is our destiny (Raymo, p. 66-67).

One of the most eminent evolutionists ever, Harvard paleontologist
George Gaylord Simpson, taught that, "Man is the result of a
purposeless and natural process that did not have him in mind" (p.
345).

Raymo concludes that Darwin's theory was "not what we want to hear"
because it is difficult for humans who have long thought of themselves
as "the central and immortal apex of creation—the apple of God's eye—
to accept that" we are, "unexceptional, contingent, and ephemeral in
the cosmological scheme of things" (p. 129).

Raymo adds that since Darwinism has demolished the belief that the
universe and human beings have an ultimate purpose, our educational
system must inculcate young people in "cold and clammy truths like
descent from reptilian or amoebic ancestors," Raymo then suggests that
although it,

would be comforting to think, as did our ancestors, that we live
in a nurturing universe, centered upon ourselves. . . . The truth,
however, is . . . Evolution is not warm and fuzzy. It can even be
capricious and sometimes cruel (p. 144).

Cruel or otherwise, Raymo states that Darwinism "is a fact by every
criterion of science" and that our "school kids do not need
intellectual security blankets" (p. 144). The implications of
Darwinism "perhaps the most revolutionary idea in the history of human
thought" are clear.

We are small, contingent parts of something that existed long
before we appeared on the scene. . . . We are as incidental to the
cosmos as are ephemeral mayflies to the planet Earth. At first glance,
this was shattering news. Indeed, the majority of us have not yet come
to terms with it. . . . Our lives are brief, our fate is oblivion (p.
222 emphasis his).

Acclaimed Oxford zoologist Richard Dawkins has written extensively
about the implications of Darwinism. In a speech titled "A Scientist's
Case Against God," Dawkins argued that Darwinism "has shown higher
purpose to be an illusion" and that the Universe consists of "selfish
genes;" consequently, "some people are going to get hurt, others are
going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason for
it" (Easterbrook, p. 892).

Dawkins believes that people who believe life was created for a
purpose not only are mistaken, but are ignorant: "Only the
scientifically illiterate" believe we exist for a higher purpose. The
scientifically literate know there is no reason "why" we exist, we
"just do" as an accident of history. Dawkins also teaches that no
evidence exists to support theism, and that "nowadays the better
educated admit it" (Easterbrook, p. 892).

The central message of Richard Dawkins' voluminous writings is that
the universe has precisely the properties we should expect if it has
"no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pointless
indifference" (Easterbrook, p. 892). Dawkins even admitted that his
best-selling book, The Selfish Gene, was an attempt to get rid of what
he regarded as an "outright wrong idea" that had achieved a grip in
popular science—namely, the erroneous "assumption that individuals act
for the good of the species," which he believes is "an error that
needed exploding, and the best way to demonstrate what's wrong with
it . . . was to explain evolution from the point of view of the
gene" (Easterbrook, p. 892). Dawkins added that the reason why The
Selfish Gene was a best seller could be because it teaches the "truth"
about why humans exist, namely humans,

. . . are for nothing. You are here to propagate your selfish
genes. There is no higher purpose to life. One man said he didn't
sleep for three nights after reading The Selfish Gene. He felt that
the whole of his life had become empty, and the universe no longer had
a point (quoted in Bass, p. 60).

Dawkins obviously is proud of the depressing effect his writings have
on people. Raymo even claims that the dominant view among modern
Darwinists is that our minds are "merely a computer made of meat" (pp.
187-188), and that "almost all scientists" believe the idea that a
human soul exists is a "bankrupt notion"; and consequently, the
conclusion that our minds are "merely a computer made of meat" is
considered by Darwinists "almost a truism" (pp. 192-193, emphasis
his).

In Futuyma's words, "if the world and its creatures developed purely
by material, physical forces, it could not have been designed and has
no purpose or goal" (pp. 12-13). Furthermore, he notes that the
creationist,

in contrast, believes that everything in the world, every
species . . . was designed by an intelligent, purposeful artificer,
and that it was made for a purpose . . . the human species was not
designed, has no purpose, and is the product of mere material
mechanism . . . seems to be the message of evolution (pp. 12-13).

Is this pessimistic, antitheistic, and nihilistic view of humans
widespread? One researcher claimed that "ninety-nine percent of the
scientists whom I met in my career . . . support the view expressed by
Dawkins [that anyone] . . . who denies evolution is either ignorant,
stupid, insane or wicked" (Rörsch, p. F3). This oft' made claim is
totally false: an estimated 10,000 scientists in the USA and about
100,000 creation scientists in the world reject Darwinism, and hold
instead to a creation worldview (Bergman). A question every concerned
parent and grandparent should ask is: "Do we want our children taught
that life has no ultimate purpose, and that our minds are merely a
computer made of meat?" The fact is:

. . . the philosophy implied by Darwinism, that life may have no
"purpose" in the traditional religious sense, and that life is
ultimately a random process . . . Darwinism is unique among scientific
theories because it attempts to explain man's origins . . . (Leith, p.
9, emphasis his).

Why do so many people believe the pessimistic, nihilistic, and
depressive Darwinist view? One reason is they are convinced that
science has proven Darwinism to be true. Sadly, however, many
scientists are unaware of the large body of evidence supporting
creationism. And numerous scientists recognize that, at best, the view
common among elite scientists is unscientific. Shallis argues that:

It is no more heretical to say the Universe displays purpose, as
Hoyle has done, than to say that it is pointless, as Steven Weinberg
has done. Both statements are metaphysical and outside science. . . .
This suggests to me that science, in allowing this metaphysical
notion, sees itself as religion and presumably as an atheistic
religion (pp. 42-43).

Darwinists have indoctrinated our society for over 100 years in a
worldview that has proven to be tragically destructive. And they often
have done this by a type of deceit that began before the Piltdown hoax
and continues today in many leading biology textbooks (Wells).

Acknowledgments:

Bert Thompson, Ph.D., and Clifford L. Lillo for their insight.

References

* Bass, Thomas. 1990. Interview. Omni, 12(4):58-89.
* Bergman, Jerry. 1999. "The Attitude of Various Populations
Toward Teaching Creation and Evolution in Public Schools." CEN Tech J,
13(2):118-123.
* Dawkins, Richard. 1999. "You Can't Have It Both Ways:
Irreconcilable Differences?" Skeptical Inquirer, July/August, pp.
62-63.
* Easterbrook, Gregg. 1997. "Of Genes and Meaninglessness."
Science, 277:892, August 15.
* Futuyma, Douglas. 1983. Science on Trial. NY: Pantheon Books.
* Gould, Stephen Jay. 1999. Rocks of Ages: Science and Religion in
the Fullness of Life. NY: Ballantine.
* Johnson, Phillip. 1991. Darwin on Trial. Washington, D.C.:
RegneryGateway.
* Leith, Brian. 1982. The Descent of Darwinism. London: Collins.
* Miller, Kenneth R. 1999. Finding Darwin's God: A Scientist's
Search for Common Ground Between God and Evolution. NY: Cliff Street
Books.
* Raymo, Chet. 1998. Skeptics and True Believers. New York, NY:
Walker.
* Rörsch, A. 1999. "Mutation Research Frontiers: Challenges to
Evolution Theory." Mutation Research, 423:F3F19.
* Shallis, M. 1984. "In the Eye of a Storm." New Scientist,
January 19, pp. 42-43.
* Simpson, George Gaylord. 1970. The Meaning of Evolution. New
Haven, CT: Yale University Press.
* Weinberg, Steven. 1977. The First Three Minutes. NY: Basic
Books.
* Wells, Jonathan. 2000. Icons of'Evolution: Science or Myth.
Washington, D.C.: RegneryGateway.

* Jerry Bergman, Ph.D., is on the Biology faculty at Northwest State
College in Ohio.
default
2010-05-13 12:23:07 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 May 2010 04:13:51 -0700 (PDT), Sound of Trumpet
<***@dcemail.com> wrote:

>The Effect of Darwinism on Morality and Christianity
>
>by Jerry Bergman, Ph.D.

There is no "Darwinism" Just some guy who wrote a book some years
ago. The Christian evangelical fundamentalists have created Darwinism
to compete with Creationism (which they also invented).

I notice the references at the end of the piece are heavy into for and
against articles presumably by people who study evolution or theism.
What is really needed is a psychologist or two to explain the need to
fight over it.
--
Pastor Dave
2010-05-13 14:16:32 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 May 2010 08:23:07 -0400, default <***@defaulter.net>
spake thusly:


>On Thu, 13 May 2010 04:13:51 -0700 (PDT), Sound of Trumpet
><***@dcemail.com> wrote:
>
>>The Effect of Darwinism on Morality and Christianity
>>
>>by Jerry Bergman, Ph.D.
>
>There is no "Darwinism" Just some guy who wrote a book some years
>ago. The Christian evangelical fundamentalists have created Darwinism
>to compete with Creationism (which they also invented).

Yea, that's why evolutionists call it "Darwinism"
and invented the different types of Darwin camps.

Evolutionists know so well how ridiculous their claims are,
which is why they try to deny these things exist! <chuckle>



--

Pastor Dave

The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.

The Last Days were in the first century:

Matthew 3:7,10,12

7) But when He saw many of the Pharisees and
Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto
THEM, O GENERATION of vipers, who hath
warned YOU to flee from the wrath to come?
10) And NOW also the axe is laid unto the root
of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth
not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into
the fire.
12) Whose fan is in his hand, and he will
throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat
into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff
with unquenchable fire.
raven1
2010-05-13 14:44:59 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 May 2010 10:16:32 -0400, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @
tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 13 May 2010 08:23:07 -0400, default <***@defaulter.net>
>spake thusly:
>
>
>>On Thu, 13 May 2010 04:13:51 -0700 (PDT), Sound of Trumpet
>><***@dcemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>The Effect of Darwinism on Morality and Christianity
>>>
>>>by Jerry Bergman, Ph.D.
>>
>>There is no "Darwinism" Just some guy who wrote a book some years
>>ago. The Christian evangelical fundamentalists have created Darwinism
>>to compete with Creationism (which they also invented).
>
>Yea, that's why evolutionists call it "Darwinism"

No, we don't. Nor do we call ourselves "evolutionists".

>and invented the different types of Darwin camps.

What's a Darwin camp? Is it where parents send their kids to build
model dinosaur skeletons out of popsicle sticks, and roast
marshmallows over a fire, while singing "Someone's evolving, Lord,
Kumbaya"?
chibiabos
2010-05-14 00:51:14 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@4ax.com>, raven1
<***@nevermore.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 13 May 2010 10:16:32 -0400, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @
> tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 13 May 2010 08:23:07 -0400, default <***@defaulter.net>
> >spake thusly:
> >
> >
> >>On Thu, 13 May 2010 04:13:51 -0700 (PDT), Sound of Trumpet
> >><***@dcemail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>The Effect of Darwinism on Morality and Christianity
> >>>
> >>>by Jerry Bergman, Ph.D.
> >>
> >>There is no "Darwinism" Just some guy who wrote a book some years
> >>ago. The Christian evangelical fundamentalists have created Darwinism
> >>to compete with Creationism (which they also invented).
> >
> >Yea, that's why evolutionists call it "Darwinism"
>
> No, we don't. Nor do we call ourselves "evolutionists".
>
> >and invented the different types of Darwin camps.
>
> What's a Darwin camp? Is it where parents send their kids to build
> model dinosaur skeletons out of popsicle sticks, and roast
> marshmallows over a fire, while singing "Someone's evolving, Lord,
> Kumbaya"?
>

Oh, great. Now I'll never get that chord progression out of my head.

F C F C F G C

-chib

--
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
Sarcastic Middle-aged Atheists with a Sense of Humor
p***@hotmail.com
2010-05-14 01:17:04 UTC
Permalink
On May 13, 8:51 pm, chibiabos <***@nospam.com> wrote:
> In article <***@4ax.com>, raven1
>
>
>
>
>
> <***@nevermore.com> wrote:
> > On Thu, 13 May 2010 10:16:32 -0400, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @
> > tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > >On Thu, 13 May 2010 08:23:07 -0400, default <***@defaulter.net>
> > >spake thusly:
>
> > >>On Thu, 13 May 2010 04:13:51 -0700 (PDT), Sound of Trumpet
> > >><***@dcemail.com> wrote:
>
> > >>>The Effect of Darwinism on Morality and Christianity
>
> > >>>by Jerry Bergman, Ph.D.
>
> > >>There is no "Darwinism"  Just some guy who wrote a book some years
> > >>ago.  The Christian evangelical fundamentalists have created Darwinism
> > >>to compete with Creationism (which they also invented).
>
> > >Yea, that's why evolutionists call it "Darwinism"
>
> > No, we don't. Nor do we call ourselves "evolutionists".
>
> > >and invented the different types of Darwin camps.
>
> > What's a Darwin camp? Is it where parents send their kids to build
> > model dinosaur skeletons out of popsicle sticks, and roast
> > marshmallows over a fire, while singing "Someone's evolving, Lord,
> > Kumbaya"?
>
> Oh, great. Now I'll never get that chord progression out of my head.
>
> F  C  F  C  F  G  C
>
> -chib

At a Darwin Camp, I'd be singing Elvis Costello's "From Monkey to Man"
instead. <g>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_EyXPs2_Jk

-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/Member, Knights of BAAWA!
Howard Brazee
2010-05-14 01:32:49 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 May 2010 08:23:07 -0400, default <***@defaulter.net>
wrote:

>There is no "Darwinism" Just some guy who wrote a book some years
>ago. The Christian evangelical fundamentalists have created Darwinism
>to compete with Creationism (which they also invented).

When did they invent Creationism? (I have no problem with the rest
of your post).

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison
James A. Donald
2010-05-15 03:01:41 UTC
Permalink
default
> There is no "Darwinism"

I am a Darwinist, I believe in Darwinism. Dawkins is a
Darwinist, Dawkins believes in Darwinism.

The Devils Chaplain, by Richard Dawkins: Page 1
There are many themes here, some arising out of
Darwinism in general
Page 9
Bernard Shaw was driven to embrace a confused idea of
Lamarckian evolution purely because of Darwinism's
moral implications.
Page 61
Darwinism is not just something that happens to be
the basis of life on this planet. A good case can be
made that it is fundamental to life itself.
Page 78
Darwin triumphant:Darwinism as universal truth

And lots more of the same in that book and each of his
other books.

Those who say there is no such thing as Darwinism, say so
because they like neither Christianity nor Darwinism, but
prefer political correctness, which doctrine is even more
overrun by happy happy unicorns farting out rainbows than
Christianity is.
Burkhard
2010-05-15 08:58:57 UTC
Permalink
On 15 May, 04:01, James A. Donald <***@echeque.com> wrote:
> default
>
> > There is no "Darwinism"
>
> I am a Darwinist, I believe in Darwinism.  Dawkins is a
> Darwinist, Dawkins believes in Darwinism.
>
> The Devils Chaplain, by Richard Dawkins: Page 1
>         There are many themes here, some arising out of
>         Darwinism in general
> Page 9
>         Bernard Shaw was driven to embrace a confused idea of
>         Lamarckian evolution purely because of Darwinism's
>         moral implications.
> Page 61
>         Darwinism is not just something that happens to be
>         the basis of life on this planet.  A good case can be
>         made that it is fundamental to life itself.
> Page 78
>         Darwin triumphant:Darwinism as universal truth
>
> And lots more of the same in that book and each of his
> other books.
>
> Those who say there is no such thing as Darwinism, say so
> because they like neither Christianity nor Darwinism, but
> prefer political correctness, which doctrine is even more
> overrun by happy happy unicorns farting out rainbows than
> Christianity is.

Nope, because they like science - not quasi-religious personality
cults which hold "ancient texts" in reverence and make statements
outside the methodological remit of descriptive theories - all
examples of an unscientific mind set aptly demonstrated by you.
Terry Cross
2010-05-15 17:38:56 UTC
Permalink
On May 15, 1:58 am, Burkhard <***@ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> On 15 May, 04:01, James A. Donald <***@echeque.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > default
>
> > > There is no "Darwinism"
>
> > I am a Darwinist, I believe in Darwinism.  Dawkins is a
> > Darwinist, Dawkins believes in Darwinism.
>
> > The Devils Chaplain, by Richard Dawkins: Page 1
> >         There are many themes here, some arising out of
> >         Darwinism in general
> > Page 9
> >         Bernard Shaw was driven to embrace a confused idea of
> >         Lamarckian evolution purely because of Darwinism's
> >         moral implications.
> > Page 61
> >         Darwinism is not just something that happens to be
> >         the basis of life on this planet.  A good case can be
> >         made that it is fundamental to life itself.
> > Page 78
> >         Darwin triumphant:Darwinism as universal truth
>
> > And lots more of the same in that book and each of his
> > other books.
>
> > Those who say there is no such thing as Darwinism, say so
> > because they like neither Christianity nor Darwinism, but
> > prefer political correctness, which doctrine is even more
> > overrun by happy happy unicorns farting out rainbows than
> > Christianity is.
>
> Nope, because they like science - not quasi-religious personality
> cults which hold "ancient texts" in reverence and make statements
> outside the methodological remit of descriptive theories - all
> examples of an unscientific mind set aptly demonstrated by you.

Did you say something? If you did, it got lost in your keyboard.
Please attempt complete sentences -- if you know what that means.

TCross
James A. Donald
2010-05-15 21:38:26 UTC
Permalink
James A. Donald:
> > Those who say there is no such thing as Darwinism, say so
> > because they like neither Christianity nor Darwinism, but
> > prefer political correctness, which doctrine is even more
> > overrun by happy happy unicorns farting out rainbows than
> > Christianity is.

Burkhard
> Nope, because they like science

They like the politically correct "science" of Gould, Mann, and so
forth, which "science" I summarized as "happy happy unicorns farting
out rainbows."

Dawkins, Tooby, and Cosmides is science. Mann and Gould is what you
guys wish science was.
Christopher A. Lee
2010-05-15 22:03:42 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 16 May 2010 07:38:26 +1000, James A. Donald
<***@echeque.com> wrote:

>James A. Donald:
>> > Those who say there is no such thing as Darwinism, say so
>> > because they like neither Christianity nor Darwinism, but
>> > prefer political correctness, which doctrine is even more
>> > overrun by happy happy unicorns farting out rainbows than
>> > Christianity is.
>
>Burkhard
>> Nope, because they like science
>
>They like the politically correct "science" of Gould, Mann, and so
>forth, which "science" I summarized as "happy happy unicorns farting
>out rainbows."

Liar.

>Dawkins, Tooby, and Cosmides is science. Mann and Gould is what you
>guys wish science was.

Liar.
Christopher A. Lee
2010-05-15 13:19:47 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 15 May 2010 13:01:41 +1000, James A. Donald
<***@echeque.com> wrote:

>default
>> There is no "Darwinism"
>
>I am a Darwinist, I believe in Darwinism. Dawkins is a
>Darwinist, Dawkins believes in Darwinism.

No, liar. You believe in a caricature of your own invention, of what
Darwin wrote.

No matter how much you keep repeating the lie, Darwinism is STILL a
dishonest attempt by creationists to pretend that natural selection is
an ideology that leads to things they don't like.

Which also leaves out 150 or more years of research since Darwin.

>The Devils Chaplain, by Richard Dawkins: Page 1
> There are many themes here, some arising out of
> Darwinism in general

He was writing for lay people using the creationist's word. A mistake
because it carries the meaning they gave it.

He certainly does not believe your version of "Darwinism".

>Those who say there is no such thing as Darwinism, say so
>because they like neither Christianity

Liar.

> nor Darwinism, but

Liar.

>prefer political correctness,

Liar.

> which doctrine is even more
>overrun by happy happy unicorns farting out rainbows than
>Christianity is.

You're certifiably insane.

Natural selection is merely one part of the modern synthesis. The
filter for the genetic mutaions.

Pretendoing that evolution is "Darwinism" ignores all this.
Terry Cross
2010-05-15 17:44:17 UTC
Permalink
On May 15, 6:19 am, Christopher A. Lee <***@optonline.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 15 May 2010 13:01:41 +1000, James A. Donald
>
> <***@echeque.com> wrote:
> >default
> >> There is no "Darwinism"
>
> >I am a Darwinist, I believe in Darwinism.  Dawkins is a
> >Darwinist, Dawkins believes in Darwinism.
>
> No, liar. You believe in a caricature of your own invention, of what
> Darwin wrote.
>
> No matter how much you keep repeating the lie, Darwinism is STILL a
> dishonest attempt by creationists to pretend that natural selection is
> an ideology that leads to things they don't like.
>
> Which also leaves out 150 or more years of research since Darwin.
>
> >The Devils Chaplain, by Richard Dawkins: Page 1
> >    There are many themes here, some arising out of
> >    Darwinism in general
>
> He was writing for lay people using the creationist's word. A mistake
> because it carries the meaning they gave it.
>
> He certainly does not believe your version of "Darwinism".
>
> >Those who say there is no such thing as Darwinism, say so
> >because they like neither Christianity
>
> Liar.
>
> >                                       nor Darwinism, but
>
> Liar.
>
> >prefer political correctness,
>
> Liar.
>
> >                              which doctrine is even more
> >overrun by happy happy unicorns farting out rainbows than
> >Christianity is.
>
> You're certifiably insane.

"Insane" is the new version of "daemon possessed." In either case,
the denouncement is the wish of the primitive mind to have his target
arrested and tortured for an extended period, usually for the crime of
uttering a disagreeable opinion.

TCross
James A. Donald
2010-05-15 21:49:37 UTC
Permalink
James A. Donald
> > I am a Darwinist, I believe in Darwinism. Dawkins is a
> > Darwinist, Dawkins believes in Darwinism.

Christopher A. Lee
> No, liar. You believe in a caricature of your own
> invention, of what Darwin wrote.

I have given a bunch of quotes of what Darwin said, which
positions I endorsed. Sound of Trumpet has given a bunch of
very similar quotes of what Darwin said, which positions
horrified him.

You have not given any quotes from Darwin.

> No matter how much you keep repeating the lie, Darwinism is
> STILL a dishonest attempt by creationists to pretend that
> natural selection is an ideology that leads to things they
> don't like.

The word "Darwinism" was coined by the first great defender
of Darwin, Darwin's bulldog, and continues to be used to this
day by those who defend Darwin's position to this day, such
as Richard Dawkins. Anyone who does not like the word, will
also tell you that all that unpleasant and disturbing stuff
in Darwin has been lately superseded by the latest happy
happy science of unicorn farts which tells us that unicorns
fart rainbows.

> Which also leaves out 150 or more years of research since
> Darwin.

Which research has confirmed, rather than contradicted, all
the most disturbing and horrifying parts of Darwinism.
Christopher A. Lee
2010-05-15 22:14:08 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 16 May 2010 07:49:37 +1000, James A. Donald
<***@echeque.com> wrote:

>James A. Donald
>> > I am a Darwinist, I believe in Darwinism. Dawkins is a
>> > Darwinist, Dawkins believes in Darwinism.
>
>Christopher A. Lee
>> No, liar. You believe in a caricature of your own
>> invention, of what Darwin wrote.
>
>I have given a bunch of quotes of what Darwin said, which
>positions I endorsed. Sound of Trumpet has given a bunch of
>very similar quotes of what Darwin said, which positions
>horrified him.

None of which actually show the "conclusions" you draw.

>You have not given any quotes from Darwin.

I don't need to, imbecile.

Because I'm not the one making the bullshit claims.

>> No matter how much you keep repeating the lie, Darwinism is
>> STILL a dishonest attempt by creationists to pretend that
>> natural selection is an ideology that leads to things they
>> don't like.
>
>The word "Darwinism" was coined by the first great defender
>of Darwin, Darwin's bulldog, and continues to be used to this

A CENTURY AND A BIT AGO, WHEN IT ACTUALLY MEANT SOMETHING, BEFORE
SUBSEQUENT RESEARCH TURNED NATURAL SELECTION FROM A BELIEF INTO A
SCIENTIFIC FACT.

Keep repeating that until it sinks in.

Move your lips if it makes it easier.

>day by those who defend Darwin's position to this day, such
>as Richard Dawkins.

WHO DOESN'T DRAW THE "CONCLUSIONS" YOU DO.

> Anyone who does not like the word, will
>also tell you that all that unpleasant and disturbing stuff
>in Darwin has been lately superseded by the latest happy
>happy science of unicorn farts which tells us that unicorns
>fart rainbows.

Why do you keep repeating this lie?

You know perfectly well the actual reason people don't like it:
BECAUSE NEITHER EVOLUTION NOR NATURAL SELECTION ARE -ISMS - it's a
dishonest attempt to turn scientific fact into an ideology that
creationists pretend competes with theirs.

Again, keep repeating this until it finally sinks in.

>> Which also leaves out 150 or more years of research since
>> Darwin.
>
>Which research has confirmed, rather than contradicted, all
>the most disturbing and horrifying parts of Darwinism.

Which only exist in your deluded imagination.

Your "Darwinism" is your own invention. Additions over above the
simple fact of natural selection. Dawkins certainly doesn't believe in
all the racist bullshit you do.

Natural selections only part of evolution. It is what filters the
genetic changes.

AND HOW THE FUCK HAVE THESE GENETIC CHANGES CONFIRMED WHAT YOU IMAGINE
DARWIN SAID THAT WAS "DISTURBING AND HORRIFYING"?
Terry Cross
2010-05-16 00:31:07 UTC
Permalink
On May 15, 3:14 pm, Christopher A. Lee <***@optonline.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 16 May 2010 07:49:37 +1000, James A. Donald
>
> <***@echeque.com> wrote:
> >James A. Donald
> >> > I am a Darwinist, I believe in Darwinism.  Dawkins is a
> >> > Darwinist, Dawkins believes in Darwinism.
>
> >Christopher A. Lee
> >> No, liar. You believe in a caricature of your own
> >> invention, of what Darwin wrote.
>
> >I have given a bunch of quotes of what Darwin said, which
> >positions I endorsed.  Sound of Trumpet has given a bunch of
> >very similar quotes of what Darwin said, which positions
> >horrified him.
>
> None of which actually show the "conclusions" you draw.
>
> >You have not given any quotes from Darwin.
>
> I don't need to, imbecile.
>
> Because I'm not the one making the bullshit claims.
>
> >> No matter how much you keep repeating the lie, Darwinism is
> >> STILL a dishonest attempt by creationists to pretend that
> >> natural selection is an ideology that leads to things they
> >> don't like.
>
> >The word "Darwinism" was coined by the first great defender
> >of Darwin, Darwin's bulldog, and continues to be used to this
>
> A CENTURY AND A BIT AGO, WHEN IT ACTUALLY MEANT SOMETHING, BEFORE
> SUBSEQUENT RESEARCH TURNED NATURAL SELECTION FROM A BELIEF INTO A
> SCIENTIFIC FACT.

Dawkins uses it in present day as a synonym for Evolution. Putting
your text in upper case will not change that.

TCross
Nosterill
2010-05-13 12:36:06 UTC
Permalink
On May 13, 12:13 pm, Sound of Trumpet <***@dcemail.com>
wrote:
> The Effect of Darwinism on Morality and Christianity
>
> by Jerry Bergman, Ph.D.
>
> It sometimes is claimed that one can be both a Darwinist and a
> Christian (Miller). Others argue that religion and Darwinism are
> incompatible because they are separate fields that should not be
> intermixed (Gould). In fact, the Darwinism worldview leads directly to
> certain clear moral and religious teachings

You should build up to the big lie at the end of the paper: That way
more people might read it. If you stick the big lie in the first
paragraph, then everyone knows not to bother with the rest.
Don Martin
2010-05-13 12:39:58 UTC
Permalink
On May 13, 7:13 am, Mound of Strumpets <***@dcemail.com>
plagiarized a great deal of tedious bullshit.

Why do so many people believe the pessimistic, nihilistic, and
depressive Darwinist view?

Because, unlike your god thingie, the theory of evolution is supported
by genuine evidence.

Next question?
Quadibloc
2010-05-13 14:12:30 UTC
Permalink
On May 13, 5:13 am, Sound of Trumpet <***@dcemail.com>
wrote:

> Why do so many people believe the pessimistic, nihilistic, and
> depressive Darwinist view? One reason is they are convinced that
> science has proven Darwinism to be true.

And they may not consider what science has to say about evolution to
in any way negate the ability of humans to live with purpose and do
good to their fellow man.

John Savard
James A. Donald
2010-05-15 05:24:42 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 May 2010 07:12:30 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> And they may not consider what science has to say about evolution to
> in any way negate the ability of humans to live with purpose and do
> good to their fellow man.

Darwinism does, however, negate both the Christian and the politically
correct account of what living with purpose is, and what is likely to
constitute doing good.
Christopher A. Lee
2010-05-15 13:20:19 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 15 May 2010 15:24:42 +1000, James A. Donald
<***@echeque.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 13 May 2010 07:12:30 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>> And they may not consider what science has to say about evolution to
>> in any way negate the ability of humans to live with purpose and do
>> good to their fellow man.
>
>Darwinism does, however, negate both the Christian and the politically
>correct account of what living with purpose is, and what is likely to
>constitute doing good.

Liar.
Free Lunch
2010-05-15 13:22:37 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 15 May 2010 15:24:42 +1000, James A. Donald <***@echeque.com>
wrote in alt.talk.creationism:

>On Thu, 13 May 2010 07:12:30 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>> And they may not consider what science has to say about evolution to
>> in any way negate the ability of humans to live with purpose and do
>> good to their fellow man.
>
>Darwinism does, however, negate both the Christian and the politically
>correct account of what living with purpose is, and what is likely to
>constitute doing good.

Please show how it negates this.
James A. Donald
2010-05-15 22:09:30 UTC
Permalink
Quadibloc
> >> And they may not consider what science has to say about
> >> evolution to in any way negate the ability of humans to
> >> live with purpose and do good to their fellow man.

James A. Donald:
> > Darwinism does, however, negate both the Christian and
> > the politically correct account of what living with
> > purpose is, and what is likely to constitute doing good.

On Sat, 15 May 2010 08:22:37 -0500, Free Lunch
<***@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
> Please show how it negates this.

Consider the latest research results on innate morality in
babies. Baby morality is what you would expect from
Darwinism. They are moral beings, but don't care much about
distant strangers, and care more about people like themselves
than people different from themselves. They want to
associate with good people, and chase away bad people, which
obviously serves a straightforward Darwinian self interest.

In PC you are supposed to care about far away strangers, in
Christianity about God.

As the NYT piously tells us when reporting some of the less
pleasing characteristics of the morality found in babies.

<http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/09/magazine/09babies-t.html>

"Many of us care about strangers in faraway lands,
sometimes to the extent that we give up resources
that could be used for our friends and family; many
of us care about the fates of nonhuman animals, so
much so that we deprive ourselves of pleasures like
rib-eye steak and veal scaloppine."

The response to the Ukraine famine, the Ethiopian famine, and
many other enormous crimes committed by people overflowing
with good intentions, shows that neither those heroically
committing the crime at immense cost to themselves, nor those
in western countries supposedly raising money to help the
victims, cared much about far away victims.

In response to the Ukraine Famine, the New York Times told us
it was not happening, and the peasants had it coming to them.
In response to the Ethiopian famine, all the big stars "came
together to show the world they cared" - but showing that
they cared did not actually extend to ensuring that the money
reached those that were starving.

The rational Darwinian response is indeed to help the far
away victim but only if he is effectively fighting back at
people who might threaten yourself as they threaten the
victim - which seems to pretty much describe our actual
behavior. We may "show we care" about things we are
culturally required to care about, but we do not actually
care.

Thus both Christian and PC morality is at best mere
hypocrisy, at worst a cover for dreadful crimes.

Supposedly caring about distant strangers is a creation of
culture, supposedly showing that the best part of morality is
culturally created, but reality is that we do not care much
about far away strangers, and people who promise to help far
away strangers, as in the Ethiopian famine, will usually
proceed to torture and murder them.

The money raised by those singing "we are the world, we are
the children", was in the end paid to those committing the
crimes in return for photo opportunities with lots of
deliberately starved children as photo props.

Darwinism tells us that if you hear someone singing such an
anti Darwinian song as "We are the world, we are the
children", chances are that any money raised will be applied
to thoroughly Darwinian purpose - as indeed it was - that
some kinds of morality are in our nature, and other kinds not
in our nature, and that kind of morality is not in our
nature, only existing as perversion, pretence, and hypocrisy.
David Johnston
2010-05-15 15:11:34 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 15 May 2010 15:24:42 +1000, James A. Donald
<***@echeque.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 13 May 2010 07:12:30 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>> And they may not consider what science has to say about evolution to
>> in any way negate the ability of humans to live with purpose and do
>> good to their fellow man.
>
>Darwinism does, however, negate both the Christian and the politically
>correct account of what living with purpose is, and what is likely to
>constitute doing good.
>

Only if you think in very simplistic terms.
Christopher A. Lee
2010-05-15 16:39:26 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 15 May 2010 15:11:34 GMT, David Johnston <***@block.net>
wrote:

>On Sat, 15 May 2010 15:24:42 +1000, James A. Donald
><***@echeque.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 13 May 2010 07:12:30 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>>> And they may not consider what science has to say about evolution to
>>> in any way negate the ability of humans to live with purpose and do
>>> good to their fellow man.
>>
>>Darwinism does, however, negate both the Christian and the politically
>>correct account of what living with purpose is, and what is likely to
>>constitute doing good.
>
>Only if you think in very simplistic terms.

He's a crackpot who imagines that Eugenie Scott is a man and is trying
to come up with a more politically correct explanation for evolution -
and also that there is a world-wide conspiracy of governments and
scientists to rewrite evolution and history "because natural selection
is politically incorrect".

He doesn't seem to grasp that natural selection is only part of the
story, and that it is non-controversial - the focus for the last few
decades has been on the genetic mechanisms, not what is universally
accepted (apart from religious fundamentalists) as the filter for the
genetic changes.
Terry Cross
2010-05-15 17:35:18 UTC
Permalink
On May 15, 9:39 am, Christopher A. Lee <***@optonline.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 15 May 2010 15:11:34 GMT, David Johnston <***@block.net>
> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 15 May 2010 15:24:42 +1000, James A. Donald
> ><***@echeque.com> wrote:
>
> >>On Thu, 13 May 2010 07:12:30 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> >>> And they may not consider what science has to say about evolution to
> >>> in any way negate the ability of humans to live with purpose and do
> >>> good to their fellow man.
>
> >>Darwinism does, however, negate both the Christian and the politically
> >>correct account of what living with purpose is, and what is likely to
> >>constitute doing good.
>
> >Only if you think in very simplistic terms.  
>
> He's a crackpot who imagines that Eugenie Scott is a man and is trying
> to come up with a more politically correct explanation for evolution -
> and also that there is a world-wide conspiracy of governments and
> scientists to rewrite evolution and history "because natural selection
> is politically incorrect".
>
> He doesn't seem to grasp that natural selection is only part of the
> story, and that it is non-controversial - the focus for the last few
> decades has been on the genetic mechanisms, not what is universally
> accepted (apart from religious fundamentalists) as the filter for the
> genetic changes.

How have the religious fundamentalists become "the filter for the
gentic changes"? This will be a story well worth hearing.

TCross
David Johnston
2010-05-15 19:32:55 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 15 May 2010 10:35:18 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
<***@hotmail.com> wrote:


>> He doesn't seem to grasp that natural selection is only part of the
>> story, and that it is non-controversial - the focus for the last few
>> decades has been on the genetic mechanisms, not what is universally
>> accepted (apart from religious fundamentalists) as the filter for the
>> genetic changes.
>
>How have the religious fundamentalists become "the filter for the
>gentic changes"? This will be a story well worth hearing.

Wow. Reading comprehension really is beyond your ability.
Terry Cross
2010-05-15 21:57:01 UTC
Permalink
On May 15, 12:32 pm, David Johnston <***@block.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 15 May 2010 10:35:18 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>
> <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> He doesn't seem to grasp that natural selection is only part of the
> >> story, and that it is non-controversial - the focus for the last few
> >> decades has been on the genetic mechanisms, not what is universally
> >> accepted (apart from religious fundamentalists) as the filter for the
> >> genetic changes.
>
> >How have the religious fundamentalists become "the filter for the
> >genetic changes"?  This will be a story well worth hearing.
>
> Wow.  Reading comprehension really is beyond your ability.  

If Chris can write only crippled grammar, his message is crippled, as
above. I have no trouble adding intelligence to what he wrote to make
it into something intelligible. But then, why should I? He presumes
to be the intellectual -- he should write something with intellectual
integrity, rather than stating that something apart from religious
fundamentalists is universally accepted as the filter for the genetic
changes.

TCross
Pastor Dave
2010-05-13 14:14:36 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 May 2010 04:13:51 -0700 (PDT), Sound of Trumpet
<***@dcemail.com> spake thusly:


> It sometimes is claimed that one can be both
> a Darwinist and a Christian.

Thanks for the laugh today! I needed that! :)

--

Pastor Dave

The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.

"Weakness of faith ought not be mistaken for falseness
of promise." - Unknown
raven1
2010-05-13 14:47:58 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 May 2010 10:14:36 -0400, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @
tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 13 May 2010 04:13:51 -0700 (PDT), Sound of Trumpet
><***@dcemail.com> spake thusly:
>
>
>> It sometimes is claimed that one can be both
>> a Darwinist and a Christian.
>
>Thanks for the laugh today! I needed that! :)

Millions of Christians have no problem with accepting the observed
fact of biological evolution. What's *your* objection to it, other
than it conflicts with your particular interpretation of some
scripture?
James A. Donald
2010-05-15 05:25:38 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 May 2010 10:47:58 -0400, raven1
> Millions of Christians have no problem with accepting the observed
> fact of biological evolution.

They do, however, have serious problems with accepting the observed
fact of natural selection.
Christopher A. Lee
2010-05-15 13:20:45 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 15 May 2010 15:25:38 +1000, James A. Donald
<***@echeque.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 13 May 2010 10:47:58 -0400, raven1
>> Millions of Christians have no problem with accepting the observed
>> fact of biological evolution.
>
>They do, however, have serious problems with accepting the observed
>fact of natural selection.

Only the stupid ones.
James A. Donald
2010-05-15 22:16:40 UTC
Permalink
> > > Millions of Christians have no problem with accepting the observed
> > > fact of biological evolution.

> >They do, however, have serious problems with accepting the observed
> >fact of natural selection.

> Only the stupid ones.

Napoleon Chagnon simultaneously came under attack by the Roman
Catholic Church and the American Anthropological Association, both of
whom objected equally to him describing the forces of natural
selection shaping human nature.
Ken
2010-05-13 14:21:40 UTC
Permalink
On May 13, 4:13 am, Sound of Trumpet <***@dcemail.com>
CCPed a load of worthless BUKLLCRAP
m***@yahoo.com
2010-05-13 14:51:43 UTC
Permalink
On May 13, 5:13 am, Sound of Trumpet <***@dcemail.com>
wrote:
> The Effect of Darwinism on Morality and Christianity
>
> by Jerry Bergman, Ph.D.
>
> It sometimes is claimed that one can be both a Darwinist and a
> Christian (Miller). Others argue that religion and Darwinism are
> incompatible because they are separate fields that should not be
> intermixed (Gould).

Darwinist ? you mean a Darwinite ? They are few and far between , lots
of biologists though .

If they are seperate fields then why cany you believe both. I manage
to believe both geology and biology and physics, and chemistry and
some of those overlap .

The morality thing would be more convincing if either no Christian
broke Gods rules , or there was instant retribution by God.
Pastor Dave
2010-05-13 16:12:25 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 May 2010 07:51:43 -0700 (PDT), ***@yahoo.com spake
thusly:


>On May 13, 5:13 am, Sound of Trumpet <***@dcemail.com>
>wrote:
>> The Effect of Darwinism on Morality and Christianity
>>
>> by Jerry Bergman, Ph.D.
>>
>> It sometimes is claimed that one can be both a Darwinist and a
>> Christian (Miller). Others argue that religion and Darwinism are
>> incompatible because they are separate fields that should not be
>> intermixed (Gould).
>
>Darwinist ? you mean a Darwinite ? They are few and far between , lots
>of biologists though .

Ridiculous claim and you know it.


>If they are seperate fields then why cany you believe both. I manage
>to believe both geology and biology and physics, and chemistry and
>some of those overlap .

An irrelevant claim meant to distract.


>The morality thing would be more convincing if either no Christian
>broke Gods rules , or there was instant retribution by God.

Whether or not a Christian breaks the rules is irrelevant
to what is true and if no Christian ever broke a rule,
then they'd be God, since they'd be perfect, so this
is just another ridiculous claim.

As for "instant retribution", if that were the case,
you would, as I'm sure you already do, rant about
who is God that He would do such a thing?

You evolutionists are ridiculous. If God does something
about humans sinning, then you claim He's cruel and
should let us make our own mistakes if He loves us.
But if He doesn't do it, then He's an absent God and
He's cruel for allowing suffering.

What never occurs to you, is to look in the mirror
and say to yourself; "I am the reason the world
is the way it is. Because of the things that I do,
just like other people".

Instead, you pretend that you do no wrong and that
sin isn't sin (there is no such thing) and then whine
and moan and complain about God and then claim
that you can't be angry at a God that doesn't exist
anyway, proving yourself to be a liar every time you
whine and moan and complain about God, since
no one who truly does not believe in God, would
bother with it.

--

Pastor Dave

The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.

"If the Bible is too old fashioned for Christians
then no one else can be expected to obey."
- unknown
David Johnston
2010-05-13 16:16:21 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 May 2010 12:12:25 -0400, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @
tampabay.rr.com> wrote:


>>The morality thing would be more convincing if either no Christian
>>broke Gods rules , or there was instant retribution by God.
>
>Whether or not a Christian breaks the rules is irrelevant
>to what is true

But the argument contained in the original website, is that we pretend
that there is evidence for Creationism so that people will be fooled
into behaving well.
m***@yahoo.com
2010-05-14 06:28:54 UTC
Permalink
On May 13, 10:12 am, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com>
wrote:
> On Thu, 13 May 2010 07:51:43 -0700 (PDT), ***@yahoo.com spake
> thusly:
>
> >On May 13, 5:13 am, Sound of Trumpet <***@dcemail.com>
> >wrote:
> >> The Effect of Darwinism on Morality and Christianity
>
> >> by Jerry Bergman, Ph.D.
>
> >> It sometimes is claimed that one can be both a Darwinist and a
> >> Christian (Miller). Others argue that religion and Darwinism are
> >> incompatible because they are separate fields that should not be
> >> intermixed (Gould).
>
> >Darwinist ? you mean a Darwinite ? They are few and far between , lots
> >of biologists though .
>
> Ridiculous claim and you know it.
>
> >If they are seperate fields then why cany you believe both. I manage
> >to believe both geology and biology and physics, and chemistry and
> >some of those overlap .
>
> An irrelevant claim meant to distract.
>
> >The morality thing would be more convincing if either no Christian
> >broke Gods rules , or there was instant retribution by God.
>
> Whether or not a Christian breaks the rules is irrelevant
> to what is true and if no Christian ever broke a rule,
> then they'd be God, since they'd be perfect, so this
> is just another ridiculous claim.
>
> As for "instant retribution", if that were the case,
> you would, as I'm sure you already do, rant about
> who is God that He would do such a thing?
>
> You evolutionists are ridiculous.  If God does something
> about humans sinning, then you claim He's cruel and
> should let us make our own mistakes if He loves us.
> But if He doesn't do it, then He's an absent God and
> He's cruel for allowing suffering.
>
> What never occurs to you, is to look in the mirror
> and say to yourself; "I am the reason the world
> is the way it is.  Because of the things that I do,
> just like other people".
>
> Instead, you pretend that you do no wrong and that
> sin isn't sin (there is no such thing) and then whine
> and moan and complain about God and then claim
> that you can't be angry at a God that doesn't exist
> anyway, proving yourself to be a liar every time you
> whine and moan and complain about God, since
> no one who truly does not believe in God, would
> bother with it.
>
> --
>
> Pastor Dave
>
> The following is part of my auto-rotating
> sig file and not part of the message body.
>
> "If the Bible is too old fashioned for Christians
>  then no one else can be expected to obey."
> - unknown

well Dave , I know of no one in the science community that could be
considered a follower of Darwin or his theories. Darwin published in
1859 or so, got some things right , but there was a lot he didnt know.
Biology has moved on and the Theory of Evolution is now the current
theory in biology.

Destroying the entire universe because your creation took something
they were told not to touch seems excessive. Especially when God knew
it was going to happen. Not controlling his angels, and letting them
breed with humans , requiring the killing of everyone (-8) also seems
a bit lax. People keep comparing God to a loving parent, but I know of
no parent that kills a bunch of kids for teasing, or who drowns his
kids because they disobayed him. Except for a few psychos of course,
is God a psycho ?

Who said I was a evolutionist ?
Who said I was a creationist ?

Christians often claim a moral superiority by saying Gods laws are an
absolute morality, but then they also claim free will ability to
ignore them, and you can always repent later. That means that you can
be a murdering, lying, cheating rapist for most of your life, repent
on your death bed and go directly to heaven. That shows a really
understanding God , who really doesnt give a crap about real peoples
lives.

Science today doesnt consider the supernatural, so to anyone doing
science any God is irrelevant. How hard is that to understand.

Look at the progress that has been made once God is put away from
science research. The dark ages are a lesson to those who can see
it.
Pastor Dave
2010-05-14 11:24:29 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 May 2010 23:28:54 -0700 (PDT), ***@yahoo.com spake
thusly:


>well Dave , I know of no one in the science community that could be
>considered a follower of Darwin or his theories. Darwin published in
>1859 or so, got some things right , but there was a lot he didnt know.
>Biology has moved on and the Theory of Evolution is now the current
>theory in biology.

Note the carefully worded response, folks. Mark thinks he can
slither around the obvious and at the same time, pretend that
he actually knows "the scientific community". <chuckle>


>Destroying the entire universe because your creation took something
>they were told not to touch seems excessive. Especially when God knew
>it was going to happen. Not controlling his angels, and letting them
>breed with humans , requiring the killing of everyone (-8) also seems
>a bit lax. People keep comparing God to a loving parent, but I know of
>no parent that kills a bunch of kids for teasing, or who drowns his
>kids because they disobayed him. Except for a few psychos of course,
>is God a psycho ?

Note the ignorance of the atheist, folks. Note the arrogance.
This is typical of an atheist. To them, it's all about them and
lining up with their way of looking at things, through their
willing ignorance.

For example, God didn't "wipe out the entire universe because
His creation took something they were told not to touch",
nor is anything else this willingly ignorant atheist said accurate.

But what does he care?


>Who said I was a evolutionist ?
>Who said I was a creationist ?

You are not a creationist and that leaves evolutionist.
But sometimes evolutionists are stupid enough to try
to claim that they are neither. <chuckle>


>Christians often claim a moral superiority by saying Gods laws are an
>absolute morality, but then they also claim free will ability to
>ignore them, and you can always repent later. That means that you can
>be a murdering, lying, cheating rapist for most of your life, repent
>on your death bed and go directly to heaven. That shows a really
>understanding God , who really doesnt give a crap about real peoples
>lives.

Note the description that atheists wish were true.
Of course, for the atheist, they're free to do what
they want, because there is no one to answer to.


>Science today doesnt consider the supernatural, so to anyone doing
>science any God is irrelevant. How hard is that to understand.

Note the complete stupidity of the atheist/evolutionist.
They actually want us to believe that science cannot
consider the supernatural, when nothing could be
further from the truth. They actually think that it's
"scientific" to believe that life came from non-life,
all by itself, even though every bit of science that
we know says its impossible and that it's "scientific"
to deny creation, even though they know for a fact
that things that are infinitely less complex that they
see every day, required creation by man, let alone
by God. <chuckle>


>Look at the progress that has been made once God is put away from
>science research. The dark ages are a lesson to those who can see
>it.

This is how stupid the atheist is, folks. The truth is,
that most of the major branches of science were
invented by creationists and our major centers of
learning were established by Christians and Christian
organizations and many of the professors were
in fact ministers. And that is when science began
to move forward, unlike in atheist nations, where
science was stifled.

But hey, let's look at it! :)


Are the Atheists Right?

The atheists...

They love to tell you how Christians prevent science.
Harvard, Yale, etc., were all set up by six day, Bible
believing Creationists for the advancement of science.

They love to tell you how the church was after those
who believed the Earth was round. In reality, it was
"scientists", who like them, could never admit they
were wrong.

They love to tell you how Christianity has taken
more lives than anything else. This is NOT TRUE!
Atheistic nations have caused more deaths than
any nation that was faithful to Christ!

1) It is not "Christian" to murder people because
they do not believe in Christ as Savior.

2) Stop looking at what fallible man does and then
turn around and blame Christianity. Man killing
people and doing it in the name of Christ, does
not mean that there is a problem with Christianity.
It means that there is a problem with man.

The atheists, who are and have to be evolutionists,
love to ask the following question...

"If there's a God, how come there is so many bad things
happening in the world?". If you want to know the answer
to that, why don't you look in the mirror? Man loves to do
evil and then blame God for the results! Here is the whole
issue, summed up, because you see, the atheist actually
likes to ask a question that has a "no win" situation.
Let me explain...

1) If God allows man to do what man decides to do,
that is called "free will" and the atheist complains.
Yet, if God stopped all evil from happening, then
man (if he could), would point his finger at God
and say, "If you loved me, you would let me make
my own decisions and learn from my own mistakes!".

2) If God allows man to make his own decisions and
his own mistakes, man points at God and says,
"If you really are God, how can you allow all of
this evil to exist?!".

You see what I mean? The atheist asks a rigged question
and tries to stack the deck. Thus, his/her question is not
honest to begin with!

As far as Creation and evolution, they love to say the following...

"Creation is NOT science and no REAL scientist believes
in Creation! It does not offer any testable theory!"

They also love to compare it to gravity, yet, Sir Isaac Newton
was a six day Creationist!

They also love to say that if you don't believe in evolution
as a scientific fact, how do you explain using your computer,
which is based on evolutionary science?

Huh?! That isn't anywhere NEAR being true! It is NOT based
on "evolutionary science", nor is evolution even science.

In fact, the inventors of computer science and electronics,
were six day Creationists!

The next time someone tells you that "Creation scientists are not
real scientists", you provide them with this message, which shows
that not only was the founder of the scientific method a creationist,
but many of the branches of science, were invented by creationists,
who all believed in a literal six day creation. To deny evolution is
not to deny God, nor nature, nor science. In fact, to deny evolution,
is to uphold science, the truth of God and the nature that God
created. And the greatest scientists in the world knew that fact.
In fact, the greatest scientific philosopher of all time, Dr. Karl
Popper, said that evolution is not a law, nor a theory and that
it doesn't even rise to the level of an hypothesis. He said it is
nothing more than a metaphysical research program.

Here is some information, for those interested in THE TRUTH...

From: The Root of the Problem - Dr. James Kennedy

WHAT IS TRUE?

Let us take a little deeper look. First of all, who invented science?
It was Francis Bacon, who is credited with having been the inventor
of the scientific method, that combination of induction and deduction,
of hypothesis and proof (empirical proof). Bacon was a devout
Christian. He believed in God. He believed in Christ, he believed
in the Bible, and he believed in Creation. He said that God had
given us two books. He has given us the book of nature to
understand the world, and the book of Scriptures-and we are to
read both of them, said the founder of science. Wasn't a Christian?
Hardly.

Who was the greatest scientist that ever lived? A poll taken of
scientists just a few years ago concluded that the greatest scientist
that ever lived was Sir Isaac Newton. If you read a list of the things
that he discovered, it is awesome! The mathematical laws of gravity
are just one piece of that huge puzzle from this gigantic intellect.
He was, also, among other things, the co-discoverer of calculus.
Sir Isaac Newton. Newton believed in God, he believed in Christ,
he believed in the Bible, and he believed in creation. To the utter
chagrin of modern evolutionary scientists, he wrote more books
on theology than he did on science. He still became the greatest
scientist that has ever lived, according TO THEM.

CHRISTIAN SCIENTISTS

If the scientific method was invented by a Christian and the greatest
scientist that ever lived was a Christian, what about the people that
gave us all of the various branches of science? Who were they?
Let me tell you about them. They were all men that believed in God,
believed in Christ, believed in the Bible, and believed in creation.
Not an evolutionist among them. Who were they:

The inventor of Antiseptic Surgery was Joseph Lister,
who was all of the above.

Bacteriology - Louis Pasteur - all of the above.

Calculus - Sir Isaac Newton, as I've said.

Celestial Mechanics - Johann Kepler, who said that science
was thinking God's thoughts after Him.

Chemistry - Robert Boyle, who left a large sum of money
in his will that a series of lectures should be taught in his
university in England defending the Christian faith.
An unbeliever? Hardly.

Comparative Anatomy - Georges Cuvier.

Computer Science - Charles Babbage.

Dimensional Analysis - Lord Rayleigh.

Dynamics - Isaac Newton.

Electrodynamics - James Clerk Maxwell.

Electromagnetics - Michael Faraday, who had about twenty-two
honorary doctorates. He was being given a huge award by the
king at a banquet on a Wednesday night. After the banquet,
the people talked for a while, and then he was called up to
receive his award, and they found that he had slipped out
to go to prayer meeting. That is what you would have done,
isn't it? After all, what is an award from the king compared
to worshiping God?

Electronics - Ambrose Fleming.

Energetics - Lord Kelvin, a great Christian.

Entomology of Living Insects - Henri Fabre.

Field Theory - Michael Faraday.

Fluid Mechanics - George Stokes.

Galactic Astronomy - William Herschel.

Gas Dynamcs - Robert Boyle.

Genetics - Gregor Mendel.

Glacial Geology - Louis Agassiz of Harvard,
a great Christian man.

Gynecology - James Simpson

Hydraulics - Leonardo da Vinci

Hydrography - Matthew Maury

Hydrostatics - Blaise Pascal.

Ichthyology - Louis Agassiz.

Isotopic Chemistry - William Ramsay.

Model Analysis - Lord Rayleigh.

Natural History - John Ray.

Non-Euclidean Geometry - Bernhard Riemann.

Oceanography - Matthew Maury.

Optical Mineralogy - David Brewster.

Paleontology - John Woodward.

Pathology - Rudolph Virchow.

Physical Astronomy - Johann Kepler.

Reversible Thermodynamics - James Joule.

Statistical Thermodynamics - James Clerk Maxwell.

Stratigraphy - Nicholas Steno.

Systematic Biology - Carolus Linnaeus.

Thermodynamics - Lord Kelvin.

Thermokinetics - Humphrey Davy.

Vertebrate Paleontology - George Cuvier.

They were Christians, all believers in creation. We actually had
an evolutionist in a debate here many years ago who made this
astounding statement: "Creation is not scientific, and therefore,
anyone who believes in creation is not a scientist." How's that
again? He had better go back and read a little of his own history
to find out if that is true.

And I just love this quote from the TV show, "Friends"! :)

"Wasn't there a time when the brightest minds in the world believed
that the world was flat? And up until like what, 50 years ago, you
all thought the atom was the smallest thing, until you split it open
and this like, whole mess of crap came out. Now, are you telling me
that you are so unbelievably arrogant that you can't admit that there's
a teeny tiny possibility that you could be wrong about this?"
- Phoebe from Friends, regarding evolution

--

Pastor Dave

The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.

"Leftists seem to be tolerant of just about everything
except dissenting opinions." - Unknown
Bob LeChevalier
2010-05-14 18:08:52 UTC
Permalink
Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>Who said I was a evolutionist ?
>>Who said I was a creationist ?
>
>You are not a creationist and that leaves evolutionist.

False dichotomy. Probably most of the world neither knows nor cares
about the subject.

>>Science today doesnt consider the supernatural, so to anyone doing
>>science any God is irrelevant. How hard is that to understand.
>
>Note the complete stupidity of the atheist/evolutionist.
>They actually want us to believe that science cannot
>consider the supernatural, when nothing could be
>further from the truth.

Until there is objective evidence of the supernatural, it is no part
of science.

>>Look at the progress that has been made once God is put away from
>>science research. The dark ages are a lesson to those who can see
>>it.
>
>This is how stupid the atheist is, folks. The truth is,
>that most of the major branches of science were
>invented by creationists

Aristotle and his like had never heard of Genesis. The Arabs who
invented algebra were probably Muslims.

>and our major centers of
>learning were established by Christians and Christian
>organizations and many of the professors were
>in fact ministers. And that is when science began
>to move forward,

Science began to move forward when people started challenging the
church leaders. Copernicus was banned for centuries. Galileo was
tried for heresy. Newton was called an Arian heretic. But science
started to jump forward when the Age of Reason hit, and religion
started to lose ground.

>unlike in atheist nations,

Which were those?

Russia which went from being a really backwards country, was quite
successfully competing with us under communism. China seems to be
doing pretty well these days, too.

>They love to tell you how Christians prevent science.
>Harvard, Yale, etc., were all set up by six day, Bible
>believing Creationists for the advancement of science.

Actually, that is not why they were set up.

>They love to tell you how the church was after those
>who believed the Earth was round. In reality, it was
>"scientists", who like them, could never admit they
>were wrong.

Scientists did not put Copernicus on the Index.

>2) Stop looking at what fallible man does and then
> turn around and blame Christianity. Man killing
> people and doing it in the name of Christ, does
> not mean that there is a problem with Christianity.
> It means that there is a problem with man.

And if man was created in the image of God, that means that there is a
problem with God. Not to mention that if God created anything
imperfect, then God Himself cannot be perfect.

>As far as Creation and evolution, they love to say the following...
>
>"Creation is NOT science and no REAL scientist believes
> in Creation! It does not offer any testable theory!"
>
>They also love to compare it to gravity, yet, Sir Isaac Newton
>was a six day Creationist!

He was considered a heretic in his day. He was almost certainly a
Socinian (antecedent of Unitarians who rejected the divinity of
Christ, the Trinity, and the omniscience of God) and possibly an
Arian. He was accused of being a Rosicrucian as well (Rosecrucianism
is based on non-Christian religion, possibly Sufism or
Zoroastrianism). In other words, very few of his beliefs were
consistent with Christianity.

>Who was the greatest scientist that ever lived? A poll taken of
>scientists just a few years ago concluded that the greatest scientist
>that ever lived was Sir Isaac Newton. If you read a list of the things
>that he discovered, it is awesome! The mathematical laws of gravity
>are just one piece of that huge puzzle from this gigantic intellect.
>He was, also, among other things, the co-discoverer of calculus.
>Sir Isaac Newton. Newton believed in God, he believed in Christ,
>he believed in the Bible, and he believed in creation.

He rejected the Trinity, and his religious writings were mostly
written towards the end of his life when he was suffering from mercury
poisoning.

>To the utter
>chagrin of modern evolutionary scientists, he wrote more books
>on theology than he did on science.

None of them considered standard theology.

>And I just love this quote from the TV show, "Friends"! :)
>
>"Wasn't there a time when the brightest minds in the world believed
> that the world was flat? And up until like what, 50 years ago, you
> all thought the atom was the smallest thing, until you split it open
> and this like, whole mess of crap came out. Now, are you telling me
> that you are so unbelievably arrogant that you can't admit that there's
> a teeny tiny possibility that you could be wrong about this?"

>- Phoebe from Friends, regarding evolution

Sounds better as a quote about creationism.

lojbab
---
Bob LeChevalier - artificial linguist; genealogist
***@lojban.org Lojban language www.lojban.org
The Other Kim
2010-05-14 23:19:35 UTC
Permalink
Pastor Dave wrote:

A lot of typical creationist drivel without any supporting evidence for
his claims.

Okay, Pastor Dave. You claim science can be used when dealing with the
supernatural. Please, devise an experiment or series of observations
that leads unambiguously to the conclusion that "Goddidit". Go ahead.
If you can do this you'd be the first I've encountered who could.
Remember that "Not A" does not necessarily mean "B". Also remember what
Dr. Sagan said, that extraordinary claims require extraordinary
evidence. There are mountains of evidence in support of Darwin's theory
of evolution by natural selection; evolution, or change over time, is
the observed phenomenon, and it's the natural selection part that's the
theory (and also know that "theory" in science does not mean "guess" but
is the accepted best explanation for an observed phenomenon).

Unlike you and every other creationist I've encountered, scientists will
change their minds if the evidence shows their current theories to be
incorrect; if the evidence leads away from conclusion Q and to
conclusion R they will accept conclusion R. You are like all other
creationists I've encountered, doing it backwards; you have your
conclusion, now you're looking for evidence. That's not science, that's
faith. And that's why creationism cannot be taught as science.

The Other Kim
kimmeratsoylentgreenfielddotcom
Howard Brazee
2010-05-15 00:29:11 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 14 May 2010 16:19:35 -0700, "The Other Kim" <***@deltanet.com>
wrote:

>Okay, Pastor Dave. You claim science can be used when dealing with the
>supernatural.

Science is about this natural universe. What can be measured is part
of nature. The supernatural by definition exists beyond nature,
beyond our universe. Which explains why there is so little
agreement between various religions.

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison
Pastor Dave
2010-05-15 12:15:28 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 14 May 2010 16:19:35 -0700, "The Other Kim" <***@deltanet.com>
spake thusly:


> Pastor Dave wrote:
>
> Okay, Pastor Dave. You claim science can be used
> when dealing with the supernatural.

Well, it may be possible, but that is not what I said.
That is your intentional twisting of what I said.


> Please, devise an experiment or series of observations
> that leads unambiguously to the conclusion that
> "Goddidit". Go ahead.

Those already exist. You simply prefer to opt for your
religion when you see the results and say;

"Nothing exploded and created the universe and life
came from non-life, all by itself, even though every
bit of science we know says that's impossible and
then went through particles to people, even though
we know that can't happen."

First of all, you snipping the fact that I RESPONDED
to a claim that what you believe is true, does not
mean the burden of proof is on me. You call your
belief "science" and mine "religion", so I am not
bound by any rules of science, according to YOU!

But you are bound to follow your own rules, which
you cannot and never will do. Prove to us that we
all came from particles to people. Show us this in
what science requires, which is either:

1) Direct observation.

or...

2) Experimentation with repeatable results.

And no that does not include you trying to twist
inferred ideas from indirect observation into
direct observation, nor does it include experiments
that do not demonstrate the type of evolution that
you believe in and claim is true and claim is science.

The fact is, direct observation is impossible, since
no one was there and there are no experiments
that you can run that will show "particles to people",
nor nothing explodes and look, there's a universe"
as results, so by definition, what you believe is
just a belief and not "science". And when you
claim anyway that it's a fact, period, end of story,
that makes it YOUR RELIGION that you believe
in faith!


> A lot of typical creationist drivel without
> any supporting evidence for his claims.

I already gave my evidence that the things
that Mark said (which is what I responded
to) were wrong. Here is part of it again:

From: The Root of the Problem - Dr. James Kennedy

WHAT IS TRUE?

Let us take a little deeper look. First of all, who invented science?
It was Francis Bacon, who is credited with having been the inventor
of the scientific method, that combination of induction and deduction,
of hypothesis and proof (empirical proof). Bacon was a devout
Christian. He believed in God. He believed in Christ, he believed
in the Bible, and he believed in Creation. He said that God had
given us two books. He has given us the book of nature to
understand the world, and the book of Scriptures-and we are to
read both of them, said the founder of science. Wasn't a Christian?
Hardly.

Who was the greatest scientist that ever lived? A poll taken of
scientists just a few years ago concluded that the greatest scientist
that ever lived was Sir Isaac Newton. If you read a list of the things
that he discovered, it is awesome! The mathematical laws of gravity
are just one piece of that huge puzzle from this gigantic intellect.
He was, also, among other things, the co-discoverer of calculus.
Sir Isaac Newton. Newton believed in God, he believed in Christ,
he believed in the Bible, and he believed in creation. To the utter
chagrin of modern evolutionary scientists, he wrote more books
on theology than he did on science. He still became the greatest
scientist that has ever lived, according TO THEM.

CHRISTIAN SCIENTISTS

If the scientific method was invented by a Christian and the greatest
scientist that ever lived was a Christian, what about the people that
gave us all of the various branches of science? Who were they?
Let me tell you about them. They were all men that believed in God,
believed in Christ, believed in the Bible, and believed in creation.
Not an evolutionist among them. Who were they:

The inventor of Antiseptic Surgery was Joseph Lister,
who was all of the above.

Bacteriology - Louis Pasteur - all of the above.

Calculus - Sir Isaac Newton, as I've said.

Celestial Mechanics - Johann Kepler, who said that science
was thinking God's thoughts after Him.

Chemistry - Robert Boyle, who left a large sum of money
in his will that a series of lectures should be taught in his
university in England defending the Christian faith.
An unbeliever? Hardly.

Comparative Anatomy - Georges Cuvier.

Computer Science - Charles Babbage.

Dimensional Analysis - Lord Rayleigh.

Dynamics - Isaac Newton.

Electrodynamics - James Clerk Maxwell.

Electromagnetics - Michael Faraday, who had about twenty-two
honorary doctorates. He was being given a huge award by the
king at a banquet on a Wednesday night. After the banquet,
the people talked for a while, and then he was called up to
receive his award, and they found that he had slipped out
to go to prayer meeting. That is what you would have done,
isn't it? After all, what is an award from the king compared
to worshiping God?

Electronics - Ambrose Fleming.

Energetics - Lord Kelvin, a great Christian.

Entomology of Living Insects - Henri Fabre.

Field Theory - Michael Faraday.

Fluid Mechanics - George Stokes.

Galactic Astronomy - William Herschel.

Gas Dynamcs - Robert Boyle.

Genetics - Gregor Mendel.

Glacial Geology - Louis Agassiz of Harvard,
a great Christian man.

Gynecology - James Simpson

Hydraulics - Leonardo da Vinci

Hydrography - Matthew Maury

Hydrostatics - Blaise Pascal.

Ichthyology - Louis Agassiz.

Isotopic Chemistry - William Ramsay.

Model Analysis - Lord Rayleigh.

Natural History - John Ray.

Non-Euclidean Geometry - Bernhard Riemann.

Oceanography - Matthew Maury.

Optical Mineralogy - David Brewster.

Paleontology - John Woodward.

Pathology - Rudolph Virchow.

Physical Astronomy - Johann Kepler.

Reversible Thermodynamics - James Joule.

Statistical Thermodynamics - James Clerk Maxwell.

Stratigraphy - Nicholas Steno.

Systematic Biology - Carolus Linnaeus.

Thermodynamics - Lord Kelvin.

Thermokinetics - Humphrey Davy.

Vertebrate Paleontology - George Cuvier.

They were Christians, all believers in creation. We actually had
an evolutionist in a debate here many years ago who made this
astounding statement: "Creation is not scientific, and therefore,
anyone who believes in creation is not a scientist." How's that
again? He had better go back and read a little of his own history
to find out if that is true.

--

Pastor Dave

The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.

"Evolution destroys utterly and finally the very reason
Jesus' earthly life was supposedly made necessary.
Destroy Adam and Eve and the original sin and in the
rubble, you will find the sorry remains of the Son of
God. If Jesus was not the Redeemer... and this is
what evolution means, then Christianity is nothing."
- Richard Bozarth, Atheist

Make your choice, people! You can't have both!
David Johnston
2010-05-15 15:37:21 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 15 May 2010 08:15:28 -0400, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @
tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 14 May 2010 16:19:35 -0700, "The Other Kim" <***@deltanet.com>
>spake thusly:
>
>
>> Pastor Dave wrote:
>>
>> Okay, Pastor Dave. You claim science can be used
>> when dealing with the supernatural.
>
>Well, it may be possible, but that is not what I said.
>That is your intentional twisting of what I said.
>
>
>> Please, devise an experiment or series of observations
>> that leads unambiguously to the conclusion that
>> "Goddidit". Go ahead.
>
>Those already exist. You simply prefer to opt for your
>religion when you see the results and say;
>
>"Nothing exploded and created the universe and life
> came from non-life, all by itself, even though every
> bit of science we know says that's impossible

There is no science that says life can't come from nonlife. As for
the Big Bang, it is not enough to not know how it happened for God to
become a scientific explanation.
Terry Cross
2010-05-16 01:33:53 UTC
Permalink
On May 15, 8:37 am, David Johnston <***@block.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 15 May 2010 08:15:28 -0400, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @
>
>
>
> tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >On Fri, 14 May 2010 16:19:35 -0700, "The Other Kim" <***@deltanet.com>
> >spake thusly:
>
> >> Pastor Dave wrote:
>
> >> Okay, Pastor Dave. You claim science can be used
> >> when dealing with the supernatural.
>
> >Well, it may be possible, but that is not what I said.
> >That is your intentional twisting of what I said.
>
> >> Please, devise an experiment or series of observations
> >> that leads unambiguously to the conclusion that
> >> "Goddidit".  Go ahead.
>
> >Those already exist.  You simply prefer to opt for your
> >religion when you see the results and say;
>
> >"Nothing exploded and created the universe and life
> > came from non-life, all by itself, even though every
> > bit of science we know says that's impossible
>
> There is no science that says life can't come from nonlife.  

And there is no science to say that life CAN come from nonlife. But
what does it matter? You must believe it to make your universe work,
so it becomes a fact in your mind, scientific or not.

TCross
Free Lunch
2010-05-16 01:41:14 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 15 May 2010 18:33:53 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
<***@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:

>On May 15, 8:37 am, David Johnston <***@block.net> wrote:
>> On Sat, 15 May 2010 08:15:28 -0400, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @
>>
>>
>>
>> tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>> >On Fri, 14 May 2010 16:19:35 -0700, "The Other Kim" <***@deltanet.com>
>> >spake thusly:
>>
>> >> Pastor Dave wrote:
>>
>> >> Okay, Pastor Dave. You claim science can be used
>> >> when dealing with the supernatural.
>>
>> >Well, it may be possible, but that is not what I said.
>> >That is your intentional twisting of what I said.
>>
>> >> Please, devise an experiment or series of observations
>> >> that leads unambiguously to the conclusion that
>> >> "Goddidit".  Go ahead.
>>
>> >Those already exist.  You simply prefer to opt for your
>> >religion when you see the results and say;
>>
>> >"Nothing exploded and created the universe and life
>> > came from non-life, all by itself, even though every
>> > bit of science we know says that's impossible
>>
>> There is no science that says life can't come from nonlife.  
>
>And there is no science to say that life CAN come from nonlife. But
>what does it matter? You must believe it to make your universe work,
>so it becomes a fact in your mind, scientific or not.

Scientists know that there are no chemical or physical barriers to life
arising from non-living molecules. Once again, you make claims that
aren't tied to reality.
James A. Donald
2010-05-15 06:21:21 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 May 2010 07:51:43 -0700 (PDT),
***@yahoo.com wrote:

> On May 13, 5:13 am, Sound of Trumpet
> <***@dcemail.com> wrote:
> > The Effect of Darwinism on Morality and Christianity
> >
> > by Jerry Bergman, Ph.D.
> >
> > It sometimes is claimed that one can be both a Darwinist
> > and a Christian (Miller). Others argue that religion and
> > Darwinism are incompatible because they are separate
> > fields that should not be intermixed (Gould).
>
> Darwinist ? you mean a Darwinite ? They are few and far
> between , lots of biologists though .
>
> If they are seperate fields then why cany you believe both.

But, as Dawkins correctly points out, Darwinism and
Christianity are not separate fields.

One can believe in evolution and Christianity - most
advocates of Intelligent design do so - but, as the century
cyclopedia tells us:

That which is specifically and properly Darwinian in
the general theory of evolution relates to the manner,
or methods, or means by which living organisms are
developed from one another: ... the perpetuation of
the more favorably organized beings, and the
destruction of those less fitted to survive; the
operation of natural selection, in which sexual
selection is an important factor ...

Which has implications that tend to be disturbing to
Christians, indeed disturbing to lots of people.
Christopher A. Lee
2010-05-15 13:29:27 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 15 May 2010 16:21:21 +1000, James A. Donald
<***@echeque.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 13 May 2010 07:51:43 -0700 (PDT),
>***@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> On May 13, 5:13 am, Sound of Trumpet
>> <***@dcemail.com> wrote:
>> > The Effect of Darwinism on Morality and Christianity
>> >
>> > by Jerry Bergman, Ph.D.
>> >
>> > It sometimes is claimed that one can be both a Darwinist
>> > and a Christian (Miller). Others argue that religion and
>> > Darwinism are incompatible because they are separate
>> > fields that should not be intermixed (Gould).
>>
>> Darwinist ? you mean a Darwinite ? They are few and far
>> between , lots of biologists though .
>>
>> If they are seperate fields then why cany you believe both.
>
>But, as Dawkins correctly points out, Darwinism and
>Christianity are not separate fields.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "DARWINISM". The word was legitimate 150
years ago. before natural selection had been verified beynd reasonable
doubt.

There is EVOLUTION, of which natural selection is one part.

>One can believe in evolution and Christianity - most
>advocates of Intelligent design do so - but, as the century
>cyclopedia tells us:

You can't believe in evolution if you are stupid enough to believe in
intelligent design.

But tha most Christians aren't fundamentalists.

> That which is specifically and properly Darwinian in
> the general theory of evolution relates to the manner,
> or methods, or means by which living organisms are
> developed from one another: ... the perpetuation of
> the more favorably organized beings, and the
> destruction of those less fitted to survive; the
> operation of natural selection, in which sexual
> selection is an important factor ...

Spot the equivocation between Darwinism and Darwinian.

People talk about Mewtonian physics not "Newtonism".

When they use "Darwinian" they mean natural selection. Not the
invented ideology or Darwinism.

>Which has implications that tend to be disturbing to
>Christians, indeed disturbing to lots of people.

Liar.

They might find raw nature, eat or be eaten, disturbing, But that
won't go away.

These implications only exist in your imagination.
Howard Brazee
2010-05-15 14:17:52 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 15 May 2010 09:29:27 -0400, Christopher A. Lee
<***@optonline.net> wrote:

>THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "DARWINISM". The word was legitimate 150
>years ago. before natural selection had been verified beynd reasonable
>doubt.

There are lots of words depicting something that doesn't exist.

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison
James A. Donald
2010-05-15 22:30:51 UTC
Permalink
James A. Donald
> > But, as Dawkins correctly points out, Darwinism and
> > Christianity are not separate fields.

Christopher A. Lee
> THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "DARWINISM".

I am a Darwinist, Dawkins is a Darwinist, Huxley was a
Darwinist.

Darwinism is the belief that Darwin got it right, including
the bits that people do not like.

> > One can believe in evolution and Christianity - most
> > advocates of Intelligent design do so - but, as the
> > century cyclopedia tells us:

> You can't believe in evolution if you are stupid enough to
> believe in intelligent design.

Most believers in intelligent design believe that species
change over time in accordance with God's will. Substitute
Gaia for God, and add some PC stuff that tells us that humans
are no higher than worms, and worms no lower than humans, and
you have the PC version of evolution, which has much in
common with the intelligent design version of evolution.

> But tha most Christians aren't fundamentalists.

Most Christians reject natural selection as applied to
humans, and believe that the driving force of evolution was
God's will - "was" as in that evolution happened long, long
ago, and far far away, which is pretty much Gould's position.
Christopher A. Lee
2010-05-15 23:10:59 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 16 May 2010 08:30:51 +1000, James A. Donald
<***@echeque.com> wrote:

>James A. Donald
>> > But, as Dawkins correctly points out, Darwinism and
>> > Christianity are not separate fields.
>
>Christopher A. Lee
>> THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "DARWINISM".
>
>I am a Darwinist, Dawkins is a Darwinist, Huxley was a
>Darwinist.

HUXLEY WAS A DARWINIST WHEN THE WORD ACTUALLY HAD A LEGITIMATE
MEANING.

You invented an ideology you call Darwinism, to include all sorts of
implications and consequences of natural selection, that are not part
of it.

You then pretend that everybody else who is called a Darwinist shares
your views.

>Darwinism is the belief that Darwin got it right, including
>the bits that people do not like.

Which are not part of natural selection per se. And in many cases are
your own invention.

>> > One can believe in evolution and Christianity - most
>> > advocates of Intelligent design do so - but, as the
>> > century cyclopedia tells us:
>
>> You can't believe in evolution if you are stupid enough to
>> believe in intelligent design.
>
>Most believers in intelligent design believe that species
>change over time in accordance with God's will.

But they deny speciation.

> Substitute
>Gaia for God,

Why the fuck would anybody do that, imbecile?

> and add some PC stuff that tells us that humans
>are no higher than worms,

A standard creationist misrepresentation couple with a standard James
A.Donald lie.


> and worms no lower than humans, and
>you have the PC version of evolution, which has much in
>common with the intelligent design version of evolution.

Good thing it's just your dishonest straw man.

What a fucking moron. A liar as well as an idiot, who plucks these
canards out of his arse.

What's wrong with you?

Do you seriously imagine that lying about people who actually
understand evolution, somehow improves whatever case you think you
have?

>> But tha most Christians aren't fundamentalists.
>
>Most Christians reject natural selection as applied to
>humans, and believe that the driving force of evolution was
>God's will - "was" as in that evolution happened long, long
>ago, and far far away, which is pretty much Gould's position.

No, moron. It is not. Gould is a palaeontologist and understands human
ancestry. His contribution was what became known as punctuated
equilibrium - which is simply evolution happening faster in small
populations which combined with the fact that most dead specimens
don't get fossilised, makes new types appear relatively suddenly (in a
geological time scale).

Educated Christians understand common ancestry, even for humans. And
natural selection is part of this.

The largest Christian denomination, the Roman Catholics", accept it -
they simply add ensoulment at some stage.

Ignorant American fundamentalists aren't "most Christians".
Bob T.
2010-05-13 15:04:14 UTC
Permalink
On May 13, 7:14 am, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com>
wrote:
> On Thu, 13 May 2010 04:13:51 -0700 (PDT), Sound of Trumpet
> <***@dcemail.com> spake thusly:
>
> > It sometimes is claimed that one can be both
> > a Darwinist and a Christian.
>
> Thanks for the laugh today!  I needed that! :)

Yes, we all know that you sit there giggling to yourself all day -
there's no need to brag about it.

Most of us also know that it is quite possible to be a Christian and
still acknowledge the fact of evolution. For example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_R._Miller

- Bob T
>
> --
>
> Pastor Dave
>
> The following is part of my auto-rotating
> sig file and not part of the message body.
>
> "Weakness of faith ought not be mistaken for falseness
>  of promise." - Unknown
John Locke
2010-05-13 15:10:15 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 May 2010 04:13:51 -0700 (PDT), Sound of Trumpet
<***@dcemail.com> wrote:

>The Effect of Darwinism...
>
There's no such thing as "Darwinism". Case closed.

<snip the trashy novel>




---------------------------------------------------------------

""All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian,
or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to
terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
-- Thomas Paine
His Highness the TibetanMonkey, ComandanteBanana and Chief of Quixotic Enterprises
2010-05-13 15:20:37 UTC
Permalink
On May 13, 7:13 am, Sound of Trumpet <***@dcemail.com>
wrote:
> The Effect of Darwinism on Morality and Christianity

Nothing can be more depressing than worshiping a dying man on a cross.

Embrace the monkey within and go for a dance...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_EyXPs2_Jk
His Highness the TibetanMonkey, ComandanteBanana and Chief of Quixotic Enterprises
2010-05-13 16:20:28 UTC
Permalink
On May 13, 11:52 am, Walt <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> If a guy was getting crucified, 'cept he had one hand free, and he
> crapped in his hand and threw it at the crowd, would you worship him?

I think so. He would be part of my revolution!
Howard Brazee
2010-05-14 01:31:13 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 May 2010 08:20:37 -0700 (PDT), "His Highness the
TibetanMonkey, ComandanteBanana and Chief of Quixotic Enterprises"
<***@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> The Effect of Darwinism on Morality and Christianity
>
>Nothing can be more depressing than worshiping a dying man on a cross.

How about believing that the vast majority of people are going to be
tortured forever and ever without hope of parole for being fooled?


--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison
DouhetSukd
2010-05-13 15:33:26 UTC
Permalink
Strumpetries in the morning
Wayne Throop
2010-05-13 15:50:55 UTC
Permalink
: Sound of Trumpet <***@dcemail.com>
: Historians have documented meticulously the fact that Darwinism has
: had a devastating impact, not only on Christianity, but also on
: theism. Many scientists also have admitted that the acceptance of
: Darwinism has convinced large numbers of people that the Genesis
: account of creation is erroneous, and that this has caused the whole
: house of theistic cards to tumble:
:
: If the Bible was wrong in the very first chapter of Genesis, then the
: veracity of the entire enterprise was called into question. Evolution
: was not just a scientific idea, it was a bombshell . . . welcomed
: by atheists, feared by theists (Raymo, p. 138).

Except that the fact that Genesis was not literally correct
was fairly well established at the very least decades before
Origin of the Species was written. Arguably, that "bombshell"
detonated much earlier than that, via geology and astronomy.
Blaming so-called "Darwinism" for it is quite silly.


Wayne Throop ***@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Pastor Dave
2010-05-13 16:13:03 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 May 2010 15:50:55 GMT, ***@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) spake
thusly:


>: Sound of Trumpet <***@dcemail.com>
>: Historians have documented meticulously the fact that Darwinism has
>: had a devastating impact, not only on Christianity, but also on
>: theism. Many scientists also have admitted that the acceptance of
>: Darwinism has convinced large numbers of people that the Genesis
>: account of creation is erroneous, and that this has caused the whole
>: house of theistic cards to tumble:
>:
>: If the Bible was wrong in the very first chapter of Genesis, then the
>: veracity of the entire enterprise was called into question. Evolution
>: was not just a scientific idea, it was a bombshell . . . welcomed
>: by atheists, feared by theists (Raymo, p. 138).
>
>Except that the fact that Genesis was not literally correct
>was fairly well established at the very least decades before
>Origin of the Species was written. Arguably, that "bombshell"
>detonated much earlier than that, via geology and astronomy.
>Blaming so-called "Darwinism" for it is quite silly.

According to you. But then again, you're lying.

--

Pastor Dave

The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.

One good thing about Alzheimers is that you meet
new people every day.
thomas p.
2010-05-13 17:36:04 UTC
Permalink
Pastor Dave wrote:
> On Thu, 13 May 2010 15:50:55 GMT, ***@sheol.org
> (Wayne Throop) spake thusly:
>
>
>>> Sound of Trumpet <***@dcemail.com>
>>> Historians have documented meticulously the fact that
>>> Darwinism has had a devastating impact, not only on
>>> Christianity, but also on theism. Many scientists also
>>> have admitted that the acceptance of Darwinism has
>>> convinced large numbers of people that the Genesis
>>> account of creation is erroneous, and that this has
>>> caused the whole house of theistic cards to tumble:
>>>
>>> If the Bible was wrong in the very first chapter of
>>> Genesis, then the veracity of the entire enterprise was
>>> called into question. Evolution was not just a
>>> scientific idea, it was a bombshell . . . welcomed
>>> by atheists, feared by theists (Raymo, p. 138).
>>
>> Except that the fact that Genesis was not literally
>> correct was fairly well established at the very least
>> decades before Origin of the Species was written.
>> Arguably, that "bombshell" detonated much earlier than
>> that, via geology and astronomy. Blaming so-called
>> "Darwinism" for it is quite silly.
>
> According to you. But then again, you're lying.

He provided the reasons for his opinion. You provided nothing but personal
insult, which is not a very good refutation.
i***@gmail.com
2010-05-13 17:08:04 UTC
Permalink
On May 13, 6:13 am, Sound of Trumpet <***@dcemail.com>
wrote:
> The Effect of Darwinism on Morality and Christianity
>
> by Jerry Bergman, Ph.D.
>
> It sometimes is claimed that one can be both a Darwinist and a
> Christian (Miller). Others argue that religion and Darwinism are
> incompatible because they are separate fields that should not be
> intermixed (Gould). In fact, the Darwinism worldview leads directly to
> certain clear moral and religious teachings about the origin, purpose,
> and ultimate meaning of life that are diametrically opposed to the
> Christian, Jewish, and Islamic faiths. The problem is that Darwinists,
>
>     can in good conscience say at one moment that they do not deal
> with God or religion, and then in the next breath make sweeping
> pronouncements about the purposelessness of the cosmos (Johnson, p.
> 118).
>
> Some scientists are more open and forthright than Miller and Gould,
> some even concluding that "there is something dishonestly selfserving"
> in the tactic claiming that "science and religion are two separate
> fields" (Dawkins, p. 62). Most evolutionists fully understand what is
> at stake in the creation/evolution controversy. Futuyma admits that
> anyone who "believes in Genesis as a literal description of history"
> holds a "worldview that is entirely incompatible with the idea of
> evolution . . ." (pp. 12-13). Futuyma then claims that Darwinists
> insist on "material, mechanistic causes" for life but the "believer in
> Genesis" can look to God for explanations.
>
> Historians have documented meticulously the fact that Darwinism has
> had a devastating impact, not only on Christianity, but also on
> theism. Many scientists also have admitted that the acceptance of
> Darwinism has convinced large numbers of people that the Genesis
> account of creation is erroneous, and that this has caused the whole
> house of theistic cards to tumble:
>
>     If the Bible was wrong in the very first chapter of Genesis, then
> the veracity of the entire enterprise was called into question.
> Evolution was not just a scientific idea, it was a bombshell . . .
> welcomed by atheists, feared by theists (Raymo, p. 138).
>
> As a result of the widespread acceptance of Darwinism, the Christian
> moral basis of society was undermined. Furthermore Darwin himself was
> "keenly aware of the political, social, and religious implications of
> his new idea. . . . Religion, especially, appeared to have much to
> lose . . ." (Raymo, p. 138).
>
> Numerous scientists have noted that one result of the general
> acceptance of Darwinism was acceptance of the belief that humans "are
> accidental, contingent, ephemeral parts of creation, rather than lords
> over it" and humans are not "the raison d'etre of the universe" as all
> theistic religions teach (Raymo, p. 163).
>
> The Darwinism belief that humans (and all living things) are nothing
> more than an accident of history, "cosmically inconsequential bundles
> of stardust, adrift in an infinite and purposeless universe" is a
> belief that is now "widely embraced within the scientific
> community" (Raymo, p. 160). Darwinism was a major factor in causing
> many eminent scientists to conclude, in the words of Nobel laureate
> Steven Weinberg, that the "more the universe seems comprehensible, the
> more it also seems pointless" (p. 154). Darwinism teaches "that our
> lives are brief and inconsequential in the cosmic scheme of
> things" (Raymo, p. 110), and that life has no ultimate purpose because
> there is no heaven, hell, or afterlife and "nothing we know about life
> requires the existence of a disembodied vital force or immaterial
> spirits, or a special creation of species" (Raymo, p. 42). Raymo
> concludes:
>
>     Everything we have learned in science since the time of Galileo
> suggests that the [universe is] . . . oblivious to our fates [and]
> that the grave is our destiny (Raymo, p. 66-67).
>
> One of the most eminent evolutionists ever, Harvard paleontologist
> George Gaylord Simpson, taught that, "Man is the result of a
> purposeless and natural process that did not have him in mind" (p.
> 345).
>
> Raymo concludes that Darwin's theory was "not what we want to hear"
> because it is difficult for humans who have long thought of themselves
> as "the central and immortal apex of creation—the apple of God's eye—
> to accept that" we are, "unexceptional, contingent, and ephemeral in
> the cosmological scheme of things" (p. 129).
>
> Raymo adds that since Darwinism has demolished the belief that the
> universe and human beings have an ultimate purpose, our educational
> system must inculcate young people in "cold and clammy truths like
> descent from reptilian or amoebic ancestors," Raymo then suggests that
> although it,
>
>     would be comforting to think, as did our ancestors, that we live
> in a nurturing universe, centered upon ourselves. . . . The truth,
> however, is . . . Evolution is not warm and fuzzy. It can even be
> capricious and sometimes cruel (p. 144).
>
> Cruel or otherwise, Raymo states that Darwinism "is a fact by every
> criterion of science" and that our "school kids do not need
> intellectual security blankets" (p. 144). The implications of
> Darwinism "perhaps the most revolutionary idea in the history of human
> thought" are clear.
>
>     We are small, contingent parts of something that existed long
> before we appeared on the scene. . . . We are as incidental to the
> cosmos as are ephemeral mayflies to the planet Earth. At first glance,
> this was shattering news. Indeed, the majority of us have not yet come
> to terms with it. . . . Our lives are brief, our fate is oblivion (p.
> 222 emphasis his).
>
> Acclaimed Oxford zoologist Richard Dawkins has written extensively
> about the implications of Darwinism. In a speech titled "A Scientist's
> Case Against God," Dawkins argued that Darwinism "has shown higher
> purpose to be an illusion" and that the Universe consists of "selfish
> genes;" consequently, "some people are going to get hurt, others are
> going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason for
> it" (Easterbrook, p. 892).
>
> Dawkins believes that people who believe life was created for a
> purpose not only are mistaken, but are ignorant: "Only the
> scientifically illiterate" believe we exist for a higher purpose. The
> scientifically literate know there is no reason "why" we exist, we
> "just do" as an accident of history. Dawkins also teaches that no
> evidence exists to support theism, and that "nowadays the better
> educated admit it" (Easterbrook, p. 892).
>
> The central message of Richard Dawkins' voluminous writings is that
> the universe has precisely the properties we should expect if it has
> "no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pointless
> indifference" (Easterbrook, p. 892). Dawkins even admitted that his
> best-selling book, The Selfish Gene, was an attempt to get rid of what
> he regarded as an "outright wrong idea" that had achieved a grip in
> popular science—namely, the erroneous "assumption that individuals act
> for the good of the species," which he believes is "an error that
> needed exploding, and the best way to demonstrate what's wrong with
> it . . . was to explain evolution from the point of view of the
> gene" (Easterbrook, p. 892). Dawkins added that the reason why The
> Selfish Gene was a best seller could be because it teaches the "truth"
> about why humans exist, namely humans,
>
>     . . . are for nothing. You are here to propagate your selfish
> genes. There is no higher purpose to life. One man said he didn't
> sleep for three nights after reading The Selfish Gene. He felt that
> the whole of his life had become empty, and the universe no longer had
> a point (quoted in Bass, p. 60).
>
> Dawkins obviously is proud of the depressing effect his writings have
> on people. Raymo even claims that the dominant view among modern
> Darwinists is that our minds are "merely a computer made of meat" (pp.
> 187-188), and that "almost all scientists" believe the idea that a
> human soul exists is a "bankrupt notion"; and consequently, the
> conclusion that our minds are "merely a computer made of meat" is
> considered by Darwinists "almost a truism" (pp. 192-193, emphasis
> his).
>
> In Futuyma's words, "if the world and its creatures developed purely
> by material, physical forces, it could not have been designed and has
> no purpose or goal" (pp. 12-13). Furthermore, he notes that the
> creationist,
>
>     in contrast, believes that everything in the world, every
> species . . . was designed by an intelligent, purposeful artificer,
> and that it was made for a purpose . . . the human species was not
> designed, has no purpose, and is the product of mere material
> mechanism . . . seems to be the message of evolution (pp. 12-13).
>
> Is this pessimistic, antitheistic, and nihilistic view of humans
> widespread? One researcher claimed that "ninety-nine percent of the
> scientists whom I met in my career . . . support the view expressed by
> Dawkins [that anyone] . . . who denies evolution is either ignorant,
> stupid, insane or wicked" (Rörsch, p. F3). This oft' made claim is
> totally false: an estimated 10,000 scientists in the USA and about
> 100,000 creation scientists in the world reject Darwinism, and hold
> instead to a creation worldview (Bergman). A question every concerned
> parent and grandparent should ask is: "Do we want our children taught
> that life has no ultimate purpose, and that our minds are merely a
> computer made of meat?" The fact is:
>
>     . . . the philosophy implied by Darwinism, that life may have no
> "purpose" in the traditional religious sense, and that life is
> ultimately a random process . . . Darwinism is unique among scientific
> theories because it attempts to explain man's origins . . . (Leith, p.
> 9, emphasis his).
>
> Why do so many people believe the pessimistic, nihilistic, and
> depressive Darwinist view? One reason is they are convinced that
> science has proven Darwinism to be true. Sadly, however, many
> scientists are unaware of the large body of evidence supporting
> creationism. And numerous scientists recognize that, at best, the view
> common among elite scientists is unscientific. Shallis argues that:
>
>     It is no more heretical to say the Universe displays purpose, as
> Hoyle has done, than to ...
>
> read more »

Long after the Humanist Manifestos 1 and 2 are distinct, The
Bible ...Gods Word for all of mankind will stand and flourish and
always be the Best Seller year after year. Its because it is life
changing...IF you let it and IF you want to get to know the Creator
of the Cosmos in all sincerity . There is no other indestructive
book out there. And one which has proven so many utterly wrong like
Voltaire who said :" Within 3 decades, The Bible will become
extinct' (Today, his very house in France is one of the biggest Bible
distribution centers of the World !) . So much for the likes of
Voltaire, Hume, and Russel .
raven1
2010-05-13 18:42:57 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 May 2010 10:08:04 -0700 (PDT), "***@gmail.com"
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>Long after the Humanist Manifestos 1 and 2 are distinct,

Do you mean "extinct"? You certainly don't mean "distinct".

> The
>Bible ...Gods Word for all of mankind will stand and flourish and
>always be the Best Seller year after year.

Never heard of the Quran, have you?

> Its because it is life
>changing...IF you let it and IF you want to get to know the Creator
>of the Cosmos in all sincerity . There is no other indestructive


"Indestructive"? Are you drunk, or just invincibly stupid?

>book out there. And one which has proven so many utterly wrong like
>Voltaire who said :" Within 3 decades, The Bible will become
>extinct' (Today, his very house in France is one of the biggest Bible
>distribution centers of the World !) . So much for the likes of
>Voltaire, Hume, and Russel .

And the relevance of any of this to biological evolution might
possibly be?
Quadibloc
2010-05-13 21:29:08 UTC
Permalink
On May 13, 12:42 pm, raven1 <***@nevermore.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 13 May 2010 10:08:04 -0700 (PDT), "***@gmail.com"
> <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> > The
> >Bible ...Gods Word for all of mankind will stand and flourish and
> >always be the Best Seller year after year.
>
> Never heard of the Quran, have you?

Surely you mean the Bhagavad-Gita.

The Quran is _clearly_ not God's word. When you're out converting the
infidels by fire and sword, and you find an infidel's widow to your
liking, you can't just grab her and forget about her; no, if you want
her, you have to take her home and take good care of her. (Sura 4,
verse 24)

Women as puppies. It gives a new meaning to bestiality.

John Savard
raven1
2010-05-14 00:18:57 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 May 2010 14:29:08 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<***@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On May 13, 12:42 pm, raven1 <***@nevermore.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 13 May 2010 10:08:04 -0700 (PDT), "***@gmail.com"
>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > The
>> >Bible ...Gods Word for all of mankind will stand and flourish and
>> >always be the Best Seller year after year.
>>
>> Never heard of the Quran, have you?
>
>Surely you mean the Bhagavad-Gita.
>
>The Quran is _clearly_ not God's word.

Nor is anything else, the purported author being imaginary.
fasgnadh
2010-05-14 11:18:40 UTC
Permalink
Quadibloc wrote:
> On May 13, 12:42 pm, raven1 <***@nevermore.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 13 May 2010 10:08:04 -0700 (PDT), "***@gmail.com"
>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> The
>>> Bible ...Gods Word for all of mankind will stand and flourish and
>>> always be the Best Seller year after year.
>> Never heard of the Quran, have you?
>
> Surely you mean the Bhagavad-Gita.
>
> The Quran is _clearly_ not God's word.

But you demonstrate clearly that you haven't read it:


> When you're out converting the
> infidels by fire and sword,

Where in the Qur'an do you claim it advocates 'converting
the infidels by fire and sword'??

In fact what it says, clearly, is:

"Let there be no compulsion in Religion."

The Qur'an Sura 2:257


> and you find an infidel's widow to your
> liking, you can't just grab her and forget about her; no, if you want
> her, you have to take her home and take good care of her.
> (Sura 4, verse 24)

You must have written your own Qur'an, Sura 4 (women) verses 20-24
are about Mercy, forgiveness, Justice for hypocrites who pretend belief,
fairness to women divorced, Mercey, how is your heart and mind so twisted
with hate that you lie about goodness:

4:20 And if two men among you commit the same crime,
then punish them both; but if they turn and amend,
then let them be; for God is He who turneth, Merciful!

4:21 With God himself will the repentance of those who have
done evilignorantly, and then turn speedily unto Him, but accepted.
These! God will turn unto them: for God is Knowing, Wise!

4:22 But no place of repentance shall there be for those who
do evil, until, when death is close to one of them, he saith,
"Now verily am I turned to God;" nor to those who die
unbelievers. These! we have made ready for them a
grievous torment!

4:23 O believers! it is not allowed you to be heirs of your
wives against their will; nor to hinder them from
marrying, in order to take from them part of the
dowry you had given them, unless they have been guilty
of undoubted lewdness; but associate kindly with them:
for if ye are estranged from them, haply ye are estranged
from that in which God hath placed abundant good.

4:24 And if ye be desirous to exchange one wife for another,
and have given one of them a talent, make no deduction
from it. Would ye take it by slandering her, and with
manifest wrong?

The Qur'an Sura 4 20-24

Every one of those exhortations were radically PROGRESSIVE
for the age.

4:24 allowed DIVORCE, as secular societies do now, but for the
FIRST TIME, prescribed a financial settlement, which was NOT
to be revoked. Women were no longer PROPERTY, they got to KEEP
property, including a promised dowry.



You are an ignorant bigot. What you reveal is YOUR mind:

> Women as puppies. It gives a new meaning to bestiality.
>
> John Savard



--

alt.atheism FAQ:

http://altatheismfaq.blogspot.com/


http://groups.google.com.au/group/alt.atheism/msg/7c0978c14fd4ed37?hl=en&dmode=source




"Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism."
-Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

"We must combat religion"
-Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

"Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism."
- Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

“Down with religion and long live atheism;
the dissemination of atheist views is our chief task!”
- Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:8290?context=latest

http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:8295?context=latest

http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:6348?context=latest

http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:17478?context=latest


"How can you make a revolution without firing squads?"
- Lenin

http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:17475?context=latest

http://www.c96trading.com/Nagant_NKVD_300h.jpg


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01001/Tsar-family_1001874c.jpg
Quadibloc
2010-05-13 17:26:55 UTC
Permalink
On May 13, 5:13 am, Sound of Trumpet <***@dcemail.com>
quoted, in part:

>     It is no more heretical to say the Universe displays purpose, as
> Hoyle has done, than to say that it is pointless, as Steven Weinberg
> has done. Both statements are metaphysical and outside science. . . .
> This suggests to me that science, in allowing this metaphysical
> notion, sees itself as religion and presumably as an atheistic
> religion (pp. 42-43).

It is not outside science to say that the Universe fails to display
purpose. That, however, does not imply that the Universe is pointless.
The Universe is here, and it can serve whatever purpose we make it
serve. There is no need to get depressed, or to worship Nature and
accept that the way Nature does things should guide our actions in
contradiction to our will.

John Savard
Howard Brazee
2010-05-14 01:37:32 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 May 2010 10:26:55 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<***@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>It is not outside science to say that the Universe fails to display
>purpose. That, however, does not imply that the Universe is pointless.
>The Universe is here, and it can serve whatever purpose we make it
>serve. There is no need to get depressed, or to worship Nature and
>accept that the way Nature does things should guide our actions in
>contradiction to our will.

The alternative Creationist theory being that the point of the
universe is to... ???

Group people into people who think like me who will be rewarded with
the opportunity to smugly watch those fooled being tortured?

Have a bunch of toadies to praise the Creator?

????

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison
Burkhard
2010-05-13 17:43:08 UTC
Permalink
On 13 May, 12:13, Sound of Trumpet <***@dcemail.com> wrote:
> The Effect of Darwinism on Morality and Christianity
>
> by Jerry Bergman, Ph.D.
>
> It sometimes is claimed that one can be both a Darwinist and a
> Christian (Miller). Others argue that religion and Darwinism are
> incompatible because they are separate fields that should not be
> intermixed (Gould). In fact, the Darwinism worldview leads directly to
> certain clear moral and religious teachings

descriptive scientific theories are not about morals, and don't lend
themselves to normative conclusions.

> about the origin, purpose,
> and ultimate meaning of life that are diametrically opposed to the
> Christian, Jewish, and Islamic faiths. The problem is that Darwinists,
    can in good conscience say at one moment that they do not deal
> with God or religion, and then in the next breath make sweeping
> pronouncements about the purposelessness of the cosmos (Johnson, p.
> 118).

The statement is not any more surprising than finding that different
biologists suport different football teams, or different political
parties.
They come in all flavours, with different religious, political,
musical, or taste preferences. In fact, outside their core subject,
there is no way to determine what "they" think, as there is really no
"they". Some of tem may, in a personal capacity, link their day jpb to
their religious believes or lack of religious believes, others don't

>
> Some scientists are more open and forthright than Miller and Gould,
> some even concluding that "there is something dishonestly selfserving"
> in the tactic claiming that "science and religion are two separate
> fields" (Dawkins, p. 62). Most evolutionists fully understand what is
> at stake in the creation/evolution controversy. Futuyma admits that
> anyone who "believes in Genesis as a literal description of history"
> holds a "worldview that is entirely incompatible with the idea of
> evolution . . ." (pp. 12-13). Futuyma then claims that Darwinists
> insist on "material, mechanistic causes" for life but the "believer in
> Genesis" can look to God for explanations.
>
> Historians have documented meticulously the fact that Darwinism has
> had a devastating impact, not only on Christianity, but also on
> theism. Many scientists also have admitted that the acceptance of
> Darwinism has convinced large numbers of people that the Genesis
> account of creation is erroneous, and that this has caused the whole
> house of theistic cards to tumble:
>
>     If the Bible was wrong in the very first chapter of Genesis, then
> the veracity of the entire enterprise was called into question.
> Evolution was not just a scientific idea, it was a bombshell . . .
> welcomed by atheists, feared by theists (Raymo, p. 138).

With due respect to Raymo, who is an excellent naturalist 9but most
certainly not a historian), this is just pants, even worse than
Dawkins' writings on theology. Mainstream churches had given up the
literal interpretation of Genesis almost a century before Darwin.
"By the early 1800s "no responsible scientist contended for the
literal credibility of the Mosaic account of creation." (Gillispie,
Charles Coulston (1996). Genesis and geology: a study in the relations
of scientific thought, natural theology, and social opinion in Great
Britain, 1790-1850. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. p. 224)

Social opinion and Churches followed suit, and with the development
of "higher criticism" and "source criticism" from the late 18th
century onwards had developed its own way of thinking about the bible
that did not require to read it as a historical account. Johann
Gottfried Eichhorn, a leading German theologian, had treated the
Genesis creation account as a parable from 1775 onwards, followed by
Christian thinkers such as Baur, Strauss or Schleiermacher. In the UK,
the "broad Church movement" embraced these ideas fully and popularised
them in the pulpits. (see Henning Graf Reventlow, Epochen der
Bibelauslegung, vol. 4, Munich 2001, pp. 209–226)


It is very unlikely to have found a pastor in England at the time of
Origins who would have advocated a literal interpretation of Genesis.
There was a more serious and obvious conflict between Darwin and
Christianity. Not the trite issue of reading genesis as a history
book, but the idea of natural selection as a driving force of
evolution. Mainstream Christianity at the time was quite happy to
accept that the earth was very old, and the result of long, ongoing
processes. Species mutability was also on the horizon long before
Darwin, and not an issue even if it contradicted Genesis. The
theological problem with Darwin was and is Natural selection: If god
uses evolution as a tool, then he uses a tool that seems to involve
suffering - at stake is the theological concept of a benevolent god,
not the caricature of biblical literalists. The conflict with Genesis
creation story only became an issue in the late 20th century with the
resurgence of evangelical literalism in the US - a geographical
isolated splinter group that seems ot have fallen out of a time warp
from the `7th century.

By contrast, and despite this more serious issue of suffering as
evolutionary force, the reaction to Origins by the
Church was very mixed, from aggressive reaction to high praise.

Revd Charles Kingsley,e.g. wrote: “All I have seen of it awes me.
Just as noble a conception of Deity, to believe that He created primal
forms
capable of self-development...as to believe that He required a fresh
act of intervention to supply the lacunas [gaps] which He Himself had
made.


The Archbishop of Canterbury, in a sermon shortly after the release of
Origins, essentially made the "two magisteria" point attributed by the
article to Gould, saying that religion had nothing to fear from
science, whatever its findings. Aubrey Moore, an influential Fellow
at Oxford, praised Darwin with faint damnation, for ridding the
Church from the more extremes of natural philosophy (as promoted by
Darwins teacher Paley) and concluded that “Darwinism appeared, and,
under the guise of a foe, did the work
of a friend." (Aubrey Moore, “The Christian Doctrine of God”, in
Charles Gore, ed., Lux Mundi (Murray, 1891; 12th edn), p. 73)

.The idea is again the separation of theology and science,
misattributed above to the scientists. Historically, they were an
immediate reaction by the church to Darwin, drawing in a tradition
that goes back to Augustine.


<snip>
Syd M.
2010-05-13 19:28:37 UTC
Permalink
On May 13, 7:13 am, Sound of Trumpet <***@dcemail.com>
wrote:

>
> Why do so many people believe the pessimistic, nihilistic, and
> depressive Darwinist view?

It's called 'Facing Reality,' SOT, something you admittidedly have a
problem with.

PDW
Lady Godevo
2010-05-13 19:55:59 UTC
Permalink
On May 13, 6:13 am, Sound of Trumpet <***@dcemail.com>
wrote:
> The Effect of Darwinism on Morality and Christianity
>
> by Jerry Bergman, Ph.D.
>
> It sometimes is claimed that one can be both a Darwinist and a
> Christian (Miller). Others argue that religion and Darwinism are
> incompatible because they are separate fields that should not be
> intermixed (Gould). In fact, the Darwinism worldview leads directly to
> certain clear moral and religious teachings about the origin, purpose,
> and ultimate meaning of life that are diametrically opposed to the
> Christian, Jewish, and Islamic faiths. The problem is that Darwinists,
>
>     can in good conscience say at one moment that they do not deal
> with God or religion, and then in the next breath make sweeping
> pronouncements about the purposelessness of the cosmos (Johnson, p.
> 118).
>
> Some scientists are more open and forthright than Miller and Gould,
> some even concluding that "there is something dishonestly selfserving"
> in the tactic claiming that "science and religion are two separate
> fields" (Dawkins, p. 62). Most evolutionists fully understand what is
> at stake in the creation/evolution controversy. Futuyma admits that
> anyone who "believes in Genesis as a literal description of history"
> holds a "worldview that is entirely incompatible with the idea of
> evolution . . ." (pp. 12-13). Futuyma then claims that Darwinists
> insist on "material, mechanistic causes" for life but the "believer in
> Genesis" can look to God for explanations.
>
> Historians have documented meticulously the fact that Darwinism has
> had a devastating impact, not only on Christianity, but also on
> theism. Many scientists also have admitted that the acceptance of
> Darwinism has convinced large numbers of people that the Genesis
> account of creation is erroneous, and that this has caused the whole
> house of theistic cards to tumble:
>
>     If the Bible was wrong in the very first chapter of Genesis, then
> the veracity of the entire enterprise was called into question.
> Evolution was not just a scientific idea, it was a bombshell . . .
> welcomed by atheists, feared by theists (Raymo, p. 138).
>
> As a result of the widespread acceptance of Darwinism, the Christian
> moral basis of society was undermined. Furthermore Darwin himself was
> "keenly aware of the political, social, and religious implications of
> his new idea. . . . Religion, especially, appeared to have much to
> lose . . ." (Raymo, p. 138).
>
> Numerous scientists have noted that one result of the general
> acceptance of Darwinism was acceptance of the belief that humans "are
> accidental, contingent, ephemeral parts of creation, rather than lords
> over it" and humans are not "the raison d'etre of the universe" as all
> theistic religions teach (Raymo, p. 163).
>
> The Darwinism belief that humans (and all living things) are nothing
> more than an accident of history, "cosmically inconsequential bundles
> of stardust, adrift in an infinite and purposeless universe" is a
> belief that is now "widely embraced within the scientific
> community" (Raymo, p. 160). Darwinism was a major factor in causing
> many eminent scientists to conclude, in the words of Nobel laureate
> Steven Weinberg, that the "more the universe seems comprehensible, the
> more it also seems pointless" (p. 154). Darwinism teaches "that our
> lives are brief and inconsequential in the cosmic scheme of
> things" (Raymo, p. 110), and that life has no ultimate purpose because
> there is no heaven, hell, or afterlife and "nothing we know about life
> requires the existence of a disembodied vital force or immaterial
> spirits, or a special creation of species" (Raymo, p. 42). Raymo
> concludes:
>
>     Everything we have learned in science since the time of Galileo
> suggests that the [universe is] . . . oblivious to our fates [and]
> that the grave is our destiny (Raymo, p. 66-67).
>
> One of the most eminent evolutionists ever, Harvard paleontologist
> George Gaylord Simpson, taught that, "Man is the result of a
> purposeless and natural process that did not have him in mind" (p.
> 345).
>
> Raymo concludes that Darwin's theory was "not what we want to hear"
> because it is difficult for humans who have long thought of themselves
> as "the central and immortal apex of creation—the apple of God's eye—
> to accept that" we are, "unexceptional, contingent, and ephemeral in
> the cosmological scheme of things" (p. 129).
>
> Raymo adds that since Darwinism has demolished the belief that the
> universe and human beings have an ultimate purpose, our educational
> system must inculcate young people in "cold and clammy truths like
> descent from reptilian or amoebic ancestors," Raymo then suggests that
> although it,
>
>     would be comforting to think, as did our ancestors, that we live
> in a nurturing universe, centered upon ourselves. . . . The truth,
> however, is . . . Evolution is not warm and fuzzy. It can even be
> capricious and sometimes cruel (p. 144).
>
> Cruel or otherwise, Raymo states that Darwinism "is a fact by every
> criterion of science" and that our "school kids do not need
> intellectual security blankets" (p. 144). The implications of
> Darwinism "perhaps the most revolutionary idea in the history of human
> thought" are clear.
>
>     We are small, contingent parts of something that existed long
> before we appeared on the scene. . . . We are as incidental to the
> cosmos as are ephemeral mayflies to the planet Earth. At first glance,
> this was shattering news. Indeed, the majority of us have not yet come
> to terms with it. . . . Our lives are brief, our fate is oblivion (p.
> 222 emphasis his).
>
> Acclaimed Oxford zoologist Richard Dawkins has written extensively
> about the implications of Darwinism. In a speech titled "A Scientist's
> Case Against God," Dawkins argued that Darwinism "has shown higher
> purpose to be an illusion" and that the Universe consists of "selfish
> genes;" consequently, "some people are going to get hurt, others are
> going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason for
> it" (Easterbrook, p. 892).
>
> Dawkins believes that people who believe life was created for a
> purpose not only are mistaken, but are ignorant: "Only the
> scientifically illiterate" believe we exist for a higher purpose. The
> scientifically literate know there is no reason "why" we exist, we
> "just do" as an accident of history. Dawkins also teaches that no
> evidence exists to support theism, and that "nowadays the better
> educated admit it" (Easterbrook, p. 892).
>
> The central message of Richard Dawkins' voluminous writings is that
> the universe has precisely the properties we should expect if it has
> "no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pointless
> indifference" (Easterbrook, p. 892). Dawkins even admitted that his
> best-selling book, The Selfish Gene, was an attempt to get rid of what
> he regarded as an "outright wrong idea" that had achieved a grip in
> popular science—namely, the erroneous "assumption that individuals act
> for the good of the species," which he believes is "an error that
> needed exploding, and the best way to demonstrate what's wrong with
> it . . . was to explain evolution from the point of view of the
> gene" (Easterbrook, p. 892). Dawkins added that the reason why The
> Selfish Gene was a best seller could be because it teaches the "truth"
> about why humans exist, namely humans,
>
>     . . . are for nothing. You are here to propagate your selfish
> genes. There is no higher purpose to life. One man said he didn't
> sleep for three nights after reading The Selfish Gene. He felt that
> the whole of his life had become empty, and the universe no longer had
> a point (quoted in Bass, p. 60).
>
> Dawkins obviously is proud of the depressing effect his writings have
> on people. Raymo even claims that the dominant view among modern
> Darwinists is that our minds are "merely a computer made of meat" (pp.
> 187-188), and that "almost all scientists" believe the idea that a
> human soul exists is a "bankrupt notion"; and consequently, the
> conclusion that our minds are "merely a computer made of meat" is
> considered by Darwinists "almost a truism" (pp. 192-193, emphasis
> his).
>
> In Futuyma's words, "if the world and its creatures developed purely
> by material, physical forces, it could not have been designed and has
> no purpose or goal" (pp. 12-13). Furthermore, he notes that the
> creationist,
>
>     in contrast, believes that everything in the world, every
> species . . . was designed by an intelligent, purposeful artificer,
> and that it was made for a purpose . . . the human species was not
> designed, has no purpose, and is the product of mere material
> mechanism . . . seems to be the message of evolution (pp. 12-13).
>
> Is this pessimistic, antitheistic, and nihilistic view of humans
> widespread? One researcher claimed that "ninety-nine percent of the
> scientists whom I met in my career . . . support the view expressed by
> Dawkins [that anyone] . . . who denies evolution is either ignorant,
> stupid, insane or wicked" (Rörsch, p. F3). This oft' made claim is
> totally false: an estimated 10,000 scientists in the USA and about
> 100,000 creation scientists in the world reject Darwinism, and hold
> instead to a creation worldview (Bergman). A question every concerned
> parent and grandparent should ask is: "Do we want our children taught
> that life has no ultimate purpose, and that our minds are merely a
> computer made of meat?" The fact is:
>
>     . . . the philosophy implied by Darwinism, that life may have no
> "purpose" in the traditional religious sense, and that life is
> ultimately a random process . . . Darwinism is unique among scientific
> theories because it attempts to explain man's origins . . . (Leith, p.
> 9, emphasis his).
>
> Why do so many people believe the pessimistic, nihilistic, and
> depressive Darwinist view? One reason is they are convinced that
> science has proven Darwinism to be true. Sadly, however, many
> scientists are unaware of the large body of evidence supporting
> creationism. And numerous scientists recognize that, at best, the view
> common among elite scientists is unscientific. Shallis argues that:
>
>     It is no more heretical to say the Universe displays purpose, as
> Hoyle has done, than to ...
>
> read more »

Your whole post was riddled with so many lies and half truths I'm not
sure where to begin, but I'll try. First, lets be clear. Science
(whether evolution, thermodynamics, or jet propulsion), does NOT try
to address the issue of the exsistance or non exsistance of God. It
is not the pervue of science and cannot be because science can only
deal with things that are observable, measureable, and falsifiable.
Next, millions of people, such as myself, have no problem believing in
a creator(whom I believe is Jesus) who started the process of
evolution and continues to be involved in our personal lives as humans
while also accepting the facts of science, including evolution. God,
in the bible, continual tells his people to seek knoweledge, to as,
seek, knock. Science is a natural outgrowth of this. There is no
"darwinism", no separate "camps". There are disagreements over
details, but that exsists in many sciences. As for what Dawkins says,
he's no better than a devout creationist - coming to erroneous
conclusions, spewing anger and hatred of others who do not accept his
view, and resorting to name calling when others refuse to agree with
him. As for "evidence" that evolution has caused the downfall of
morality and society there really is none. The studies they cited
have forgotten the main axiom of science - correlation does NOT
necessarily = causation. There are many other studies showing that
religious zealots ie creationist fundamentalists, are responsible for
many of the moral downfalls and sociatal ills of our day. The fact
is, any religion is a matter of faith, as it should be. But evolution
is a fact that is supported by mounds of evidence spanning 150years.
There is no "belief" in evolution, it is simply a fact that those who
have studied the evidence accept. You can choose to not accept
reality if you like, but that doesn't make reality different and it
doesn't make the evidence disappear.

Kimberly
Wexford
2010-05-14 02:22:23 UTC
Permalink
On May 13, 3:55 pm, Lady Godevo <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Your whole post was riddled with so many lies and half truths I'm not
> sure where to begin, but I'll try.  First, lets be clear.  Science
> (whether evolution, thermodynamics, or jet propulsion), does NOT try
> to address the issue of the exsistance or non exsistance of God.  It
> is not the pervue of science and cannot be because science can only
> deal with things that are observable, measureable, and falsifiable.
> Next, millions of people, such as myself, have no problem believing in
> a creator(whom I believe is Jesus) who started the process of
> evolution and continues to be involved in our personal lives as humans
> while also accepting the facts of science, including evolution.  God,
> in the bible, continual tells his people to seek knoweledge, to as,
> seek, knock.  Science is a natural outgrowth of this.  There is no
> "darwinism", no separate "camps".  There are disagreements over
> details, but that exsists in many sciences.  As for what Dawkins says,
> he's no better than a devout creationist - coming to erroneous
> conclusions, spewing anger and hatred of others who do not accept his
> view, and resorting to name calling when others refuse to agree with
> him.  As for "evidence" that evolution has caused the downfall of
> morality and society there really is none.  The studies they cited
> have forgotten the main axiom of science - correlation does NOT
> necessarily = causation.  There are many other studies showing that
> religious zealots ie creationist fundamentalists, are responsible for
> many of the moral downfalls and sociatal ills of our day.  The fact
> is, any religion is a matter of faith, as it should be.  But evolution
> is a fact that is supported by mounds of evidence spanning 150years.
> There is no "belief" in evolution, it is simply a fact that those who
> have studied the evidence accept.  You can choose to not accept
> reality if you like, but that doesn't make reality different and it
> doesn't make the evidence disappear.

I wonder if these Bozos ever bother to read their own propaganda. The
Creation Science Institute (if it still exists) used to trumpet its
belief in evolution. Even those yahoos were well aware that evolution
is a fact. They preached that God created "forms," e.g., fish or
birds, and that animals evolved from the forms. It was a way
accommodating both fundamental belief and evolution. Of course, some
of them went on to say that evolution happened much more quickly than
biologists claim, etc., but they did accept evolution. Idiots like
"Trumpet" simply deny and deny and make themselves look ridiculous.
Not only that, the conclusions and implications they draw from
anything that opposes their viewpoint are utterly unfounded and
purposefully mean. " . the philosophy implied by Darwinism, that life
may have no "purpose" in the traditional religious sense, and that
life is ultimately a random process . . . " There is nothing in the
theory (fact) of evolution that addresses the meaning of life. We
leave that up to Philosophers, Theologians, and Monty Python.
Furthermore, there are no implications one can draw regarding the
meaning of life. Tielhard de Chardin viewed the implications of
evolution much differently. He saw all things as evolving toward an
"omega point," a final summit, the mind of God. I find that concept
much more attractive than the fundy view of an immortal soul destined
for either heaven or hell if one "does not accept Christ as his/her
personal savior," (whatever in blazes that means).
Lady Godevo
2010-05-14 03:35:07 UTC
Permalink
On May 13, 9:22 pm, Wexford <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 13, 3:55 pm, Lady Godevo <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Your whole post was riddled with so many lies and half truths I'm not
> > sure where to begin, but I'll try.  First, lets be clear.  Science
> > (whether evolution, thermodynamics, or jet propulsion), does NOT try
> > to address the issue of the exsistance or non exsistance of God.  It
> > is not the pervue of science and cannot be because science can only
> > deal with things that are observable, measureable, and falsifiable.
> > Next, millions of people, such as myself, have no problem believing in
> > a creator(whom I believe is Jesus) who started the process of
> > evolution and continues to be involved in our personal lives as humans
> > while also accepting the facts of science, including evolution.  God,
> > in the bible, continual tells his people to seek knoweledge, to as,
> > seek, knock.  Science is a natural outgrowth of this.  There is no
> > "darwinism", no separate "camps".  There are disagreements over
> > details, but that exsists in many sciences.  As for what Dawkins says,
> > he's no better than a devout creationist - coming to erroneous
> > conclusions, spewing anger and hatred of others who do not accept his
> > view, and resorting to name calling when others refuse to agree with
> > him.  As for "evidence" that evolution has caused the downfall of
> > morality and society there really is none.  The studies they cited
> > have forgotten the main axiom of science - correlation does NOT
> > necessarily = causation.  There are many other studies showing that
> > religious zealots ie creationist fundamentalists, are responsible for
> > many of the moral downfalls and sociatal ills of our day.  The fact
> > is, any religion is a matter of faith, as it should be.  But evolution
> > is a fact that is supported by mounds of evidence spanning 150years.
> > There is no "belief" in evolution, it is simply a fact that those who
> > have studied the evidence accept.  You can choose to not accept
> > reality if you like, but that doesn't make reality different and it
> > doesn't make the evidence disappear.
>
> I wonder if these Bozos ever bother to read their own propaganda. The
> Creation Science Institute (if it still exists) used to trumpet its
> belief in evolution. Even those yahoos were well aware that evolution
> is a fact. They preached that God created "forms," e.g., fish or
> birds, and that animals evolved from the forms. It was a way
> accommodating both fundamental belief and evolution. Of course, some
> of them went on to say that evolution happened much more quickly than
> biologists  claim, etc., but they did accept evolution. Idiots like
> "Trumpet" simply deny and deny and make themselves look ridiculous.
> Not only that, the conclusions and implications they draw from
> anything that opposes their viewpoint are utterly unfounded and
> purposefully mean. " . the philosophy implied by Darwinism, that life
> may have no "purpose" in the traditional religious sense, and that
> life is ultimately a random process . . . " There is nothing in the
> theory (fact) of evolution that addresses the meaning of life. We
> leave that up to Philosophers, Theologians, and Monty Python.
> Furthermore, there are no implications one can draw regarding the
> meaning of life. Tielhard de Chardin viewed the implications of
> evolution much differently. He saw all things as evolving toward an
> "omega point," a final summit, the mind of God. I find that concept
> much more attractive than the fundy view of an immortal soul destined
> for either heaven or hell if one "does not accept Christ as his/her
> personal savior," (whatever in blazes that means).- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'm all for that. They just don't seem to understand that no matter
how loud they scream or how long they cover their ears the evidence
remains and in this case just gets stronger. I hope that one day they
will be able to reconcile reality with their faith.

Kimberly
Pastor Dave
2010-05-14 11:40:35 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 May 2010 19:22:23 -0700 (PDT), Wexford <***@gmail.com>
spake thusly:


>I wonder if these Bozos ever bother to read their own propaganda. The
>Creation Science Institute (if it still exists) used to trumpet its
>belief in evolution. Even those yahoos were well aware that evolution
>is a fact. They preached that God created "forms," e.g., fish or
>birds, and that animals evolved from the forms.

Why do you lie? Oh, never mind, we know why.
You're an atheist and an evolutionist, that's why!

Educated Creationists believe that the evolution
that is observable takes place. For example,
all dogs probably came from two ancestors.
A pair of dogs. And it is probably true that
dogs came from wolves, as evolutionists say.
But both are canids and so, this is still from
the same kind of animal.

That is not the same as saying that dogs came
from some completely different life form and so
you lie when you say that the CSI said that the
fairy take that you believe in and is not science
is true.


> It was a way accommodating both fundamental belief
> and evolution.

"It" wasn't stated. But what is stated is no such thing.
Rather, it is a way of being honest about what is and
isn't science and particles to people is religion, not
science and cannot be classified as science.

--

Pastor Dave

The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.

"An earthly kingdom cannot exist without any quality
of persons. Some must be free, some surfs, some
rulers, some subjects." - Martin Luther
Tim Miller
2010-05-14 13:26:12 UTC
Permalink
Pastor Dave wrote:

> Educated Creationists

OXYMORON ALERT!!!
Ralph
2010-05-14 13:55:56 UTC
Permalink
On 5/14/2010 9:26 AM, Tim Miller wrote:
> Pastor Dave wrote:
>
>> Educated Creationists
>
> OXYMORON ALERT!!!


ROTFLMAO!!
Wexford
2010-05-15 03:20:50 UTC
Permalink
On May 14, 7:40 am, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com>
wrote:
> On Thu, 13 May 2010 19:22:23 -0700 (PDT), Wexford <***@gmail.com>
> spake thusly:
******************

> >I wonder if these Bozos ever bother to read their own propaganda. The
> >Creation Science Institute (if it still exists) used to trumpet its
> >belief in evolution. Even those yahoos were well aware that evolution
> >is a fact. They preached that God created "forms," e.g., fish or
> >birds, and that animals evolved from the forms.
>
> Why do you lie?  Oh, never mind, we know why.
> You're an atheist and an evolutionist, that's why!

Davy, my friend, I didn't lie. The theory that God created
"forms" (fish, birds, etc.) from which modern animals evolved is an
attempt to reconcile fundamentalist belief with evolutionary fact. It
also a way of getting around the problem of speciation Go read the
literature. Obviously, you're unfamiliar with it.

> Educated Creationists believe that the evolution
> that is observable takes place.  For example,
> all dogs probably came from two ancestors.
> A pair of dogs.  And it is probably true that
> dogs came from wolves, as evolutionists say.
> But both are canids and so, this is still from
> the same kind of animal.

Yes, Dave, the "same kind of animal," a "form" from which modern
animals evolved, or so some people believe.

>
> That is not the same as saying that dogs came
> from some completely different life form and so
> you lie when you say that the CSI said that the
> fairy take that you believe in and is not science
> is true.

You didn't understand what I wrote.

> > It was a way accommodating both fundamental belief
> > and evolution.
>
> "It" wasn't stated.  But what is stated is no such thing.
> Rather, it is a way of being honest about what is and
> isn't science and particles to people is religion, not
> science and cannot be classified as science.

"It" referred to the belief in the direct creation of life "forms,"
and their subsequent evolution. If you think "it" isn't scientific
(or, rather supported by any scientific evidence), you won't get an
argument from me.
Pastor Dave
2010-05-15 12:21:25 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 14 May 2010 20:20:50 -0700 (PDT), Wexford <***@gmail.com>
spake thusly:


>> >I wonder if these Bozos ever bother to read their own propaganda. The
>> >Creation Science Institute (if it still exists) used to trumpet its
>> >belief in evolution. Even those yahoos were well aware that evolution
>> >is a fact. They preached that God created "forms," e.g., fish or
>> >birds, and that animals evolved from the forms.
>>
>> Why do you lie?  Oh, never mind, we know why.
>> You're an atheist and an evolutionist, that's why!
>
> Davy, my friend, I didn't lie. The theory that God created
> "forms" (fish, birds, etc.) from which modern animals
> evolved is an attempt to reconcile fundamentalist belief
> with evolutionary fact. It also a way of getting around
> the problem of speciation. Go read the literature.
> Obviously, you're unfamiliar with it.

Please define, "modern animals from fish, birds, etc.".


>> Educated Creationists believe that the evolution
>> that is observable takes place.  For example,
>> all dogs probably came from two ancestors.
>> A pair of dogs.  And it is probably true that
>> dogs came from wolves, as evolutionists say.
>> But both are canids and so, this is still from
>> the same kind of animal.
>
> Yes, Dave, the "same kind of animal," a "form"
> from which modern animals evolved, or so some
> people believe.

Please define the "form" that you speak of.


>> That is not the same as saying that dogs came
>> from some completely different life form and so
>> you lie when you say that the CSI said that the
>> fairy take that you believe in and is not science
>> is true.
>
> You didn't understand what I wrote.

If so, I apologize. But maybe it's the way you worded it?


>>> It was a way accommodating both fundamental
>>> belief and evolution.
>>
>> "It" wasn't stated.  But what is stated is no such thing.
>> Rather, it is a way of being honest about what is and
>> isn't science and particles to people is religion, not
>> science and cannot be classified as science.
>
> "It" referred to the belief in the direct creation of life
> "forms," and their subsequent evolution. If you think
> "it" isn't scientific (or, rather supported by any scientific
> evidence), you won't get an argument from me.

The fact is, there are six types of evolution and educated
Creationists believe in the one type that is directly observed
and is therefore, "science".

--

Pastor Dave

The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.

"Learning to ignore things is one of the great paths
to inner peace." - Robert J. Sawyer
Free Lunch
2010-05-15 13:27:32 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 15 May 2010 08:21:25 -0400, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @
tampabay.rr.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:

>On Fri, 14 May 2010 20:20:50 -0700 (PDT), Wexford <***@gmail.com>
>spake thusly:
>
>
>>> >I wonder if these Bozos ever bother to read their own propaganda. The
>>> >Creation Science Institute (if it still exists) used to trumpet its
>>> >belief in evolution. Even those yahoos were well aware that evolution
>>> >is a fact. They preached that God created "forms," e.g., fish or
>>> >birds, and that animals evolved from the forms.
>>>
>>> Why do you lie?  Oh, never mind, we know why.
>>> You're an atheist and an evolutionist, that's why!
>>
>> Davy, my friend, I didn't lie. The theory that God created
>> "forms" (fish, birds, etc.) from which modern animals
>> evolved is an attempt to reconcile fundamentalist belief
>> with evolutionary fact. It also a way of getting around
>> the problem of speciation. Go read the literature.
>> Obviously, you're unfamiliar with it.
>
>Please define, "modern animals from fish, birds, etc.".
>
>
>>> Educated Creationists believe that the evolution
>>> that is observable takes place.  For example,
>>> all dogs probably came from two ancestors.
>>> A pair of dogs.  And it is probably true that
>>> dogs came from wolves, as evolutionists say.
>>> But both are canids and so, this is still from
>>> the same kind of animal.
>>
>> Yes, Dave, the "same kind of animal," a "form"
>> from which modern animals evolved, or so some
>> people believe.
>
>Please define the "form" that you speak of.
>
>
>>> That is not the same as saying that dogs came
>>> from some completely different life form and so
>>> you lie when you say that the CSI said that the
>>> fairy take that you believe in and is not science
>>> is true.
>>
>> You didn't understand what I wrote.
>
>If so, I apologize. But maybe it's the way you worded it?
>
>
>>>> It was a way accommodating both fundamental
>>>> belief and evolution.
>>>
>>> "It" wasn't stated.  But what is stated is no such thing.
>>> Rather, it is a way of being honest about what is and
>>> isn't science and particles to people is religion, not
>>> science and cannot be classified as science.
>>
>> "It" referred to the belief in the direct creation of life
>> "forms," and their subsequent evolution. If you think
>> "it" isn't scientific (or, rather supported by any scientific
>> evidence), you won't get an argument from me.
>
>The fact is, there are six types of evolution and educated
>Creationists believe in the one type that is directly observed
>and is therefore, "science".

You have demonstrated repeatedly that you are ignorant of science and
that you prefer to lie about all scientific discoveries that don't fit
into your religious dogma. Your "six types of evolution" are one such
lie that you invented to help you tell lies without letting your
conscience bother you. You are lying. You are behaving in an
indefensible fashion. You mock your god with the lies you tell.
Pastor Dave
2010-05-14 11:36:01 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 May 2010 12:55:59 -0700 (PDT), Lady Godevo
<***@yahoo.com> spake thusly:


>Your whole post was riddled with so many lies and half truths I'm not
>sure where to begin, but I'll try. First, lets be clear. Science
>(whether evolution, thermodynamics, or jet propulsion), does NOT try
>to address the issue of the exsistance or non exsistance of God.

Abiogenesis and natural selection exclude God and we both know it,
so cut the crap.


>It is not the pervue of science and cannot be because science can only
>deal with things that are observable, measureable, and falsifiable.

It is not science to deny that creation took place, while stating that
abiogenesis, which says that life came from non-living matter all
by itself, is a fact, when neither is observable, measurable,
nor falsifiable, since none of us were there for either scenario,
so again, cut the crap.


> There are many other studies showing that religious zealots
> ie creationist fundamentalists, are responsible for many of
> the moral downfalls and sociatal ills of our day.

Sorry, but it is atheism that has caused many problems
and it is atheistic nations that have killed more people
than any religion.


> The fact is, any religion is a matter of faith, as it should be.

It is not solely faith. But evolution is.


> But evolution is a fact that is supported by mounds
> of evidence spanning 150 years. There is no "belief"
> in evolution, it is simply a fact that those who have
> studied the evidence accept.

This is the lie that evolutionists tell and can never support.
All you idiots do, is play bait & switch! You claim man
came from ape and then when asked to prove it,
show us flowers from flowers and other such nonsense!

Prove particles to people! And I mean PROVE IT!!!

You are the one telling lies here, period!

--

Pastor Dave

The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.

If you want to make God laugh, just tell Him
what you have planned. :)
Wexford
2010-05-15 03:35:24 UTC
Permalink
On May 14, 7:36 am, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com>
wrote:
> On Thu, 13 May 2010 12:55:59 -0700 (PDT), Lady Godevo
> <***@yahoo.com> spake thusly:
*******************

> >Your whole post was riddled with so many lies and half truths I'm not
> >sure where to begin, but I'll try.  First, lets be clear.  Science
> >(whether evolution, thermodynamics, or jet propulsion), does NOT try
> >to address the issue of the exsistance or non exsistance of God.
>
> Abiogenesis and natural selection exclude God and we both know it,
> so cut the crap.

Exclude God?? From what?? How can God be excluded when He is all
present, all knowing, all powerful?

> >It is not the pervue of science and cannot be because science can only
> >deal with things that are observable, measureable, and falsifiable.
>
> It is not science to deny that creation took place, while stating that
> abiogenesis, which says that life came from non-living matter all
> by itself, is a fact, when neither is observable, measurable,
> nor falsifiable, since none of us were there for either scenario,
> so again, cut the crap.

No one "denies" anything. All that's said is there is no evidence for
any creation. If God created everything, as you undoubtedly believe,
then that belief completely supports the idea of life springing from
non-life. Perhaps God made it happen. Perhaps God exists, it happened,
but He didn't make it happen; it was like a rock rolling down a hill,
or the waves beating the beach, just something that happened. And if
some God did make it happen, then where did God come from? Is there
only one of Him? How do you know anything about Him?

> > There are many other studies showing that religious zealots
> > ie creationist fundamentalists, are responsible for many of
> > the moral downfalls and sociatal ills of our day.
>
> Sorry, but it is atheism that has caused many problems
> and it is atheistic nations that have killed more people
> than any religion.

Every European war ever fought, every persecution of anyone in the
Western world, was done by Theists. Before Mao, every Asian war ever
fought was begun by Theists. Why doesn't belief in God bring peace?
Europe entered its greatest period of peace when, after WWII, secular
governments ran everything.

> > The fact is, any religion is a matter of faith, as it should be.
>
> It is not solely faith.  But evolution is.

Balderdash. Evolution is supported by so much evidence, it is
virtually fact, not theory.

> > But evolution is a fact that is supported by mounds
> > of evidence spanning 150 years.  There is no "belief"
> > in evolution, it is simply a fact that those who have
> > studied the evidence accept.
>
> This is the lie that evolutionists tell and can never support.
> All you idiots do, is play bait & switch!  You claim man
> came from ape and then when asked to prove it,
> show us flowers from flowers and other such nonsense!

Man did NOT come from apes. Man is an APE.

> Prove particles to people!  And I mean PROVE IT!!!

Evolution has nothing to do with the origins of life.
Pastor Dave
2010-05-15 12:25:08 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 14 May 2010 20:35:24 -0700 (PDT), Wexford <***@gmail.com>
spake thusly:


>>> But evolution is a fact that is supported by mounds
>>> of evidence spanning 150 years.  There is no "belief"
>>> in evolution, it is simply a fact that those who have
>>> studied the evidence accept.
>>
>> This is the lie that evolutionists tell and can never support.
>> All you idiots do, is play bait & switch!  You claim man
>> came from ape and then when asked to prove it,
>> show us flowers from flowers and other such nonsense!
>
> Man did NOT come from apes. Man is an APE.

You responded as I thought you would. The fact is,
that evolutionists teach that man came from a type
of ape that does not exist any more, so you are
either ignorant, or a liar.


>> Prove particles to people!  And I mean PROVE IT!!!
>
> Evolution has nothing to do with the origins of life.

Yes, it does and it was always taught that way.
It is only in recent history, that evolutionists,
being embarrassed by it, have tried to separate
it out from evolution and you are now just
trying to avoid dealing with the subject.

Particles to people is what you believe and is
what you call science and is what you say did
happen, so PROVE IT to be true.

--

Pastor Dave

The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.

The Last Days were in the first century:

Romans 13:11-2

11) And that, knowing the time, that NOW
it is high time to awake out of sleep:
for NOW is our salvation nearer than when
we believed.
12) The night is far spent, the day is
AT HAND: let us therefore cast off the
works of darkness, and let us put on
the armor of light.
Free Lunch
2010-05-15 13:32:09 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 15 May 2010 08:25:08 -0400, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @
tampabay.rr.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:

>On Fri, 14 May 2010 20:35:24 -0700 (PDT), Wexford <***@gmail.com>
>spake thusly:
>
>
>>>> But evolution is a fact that is supported by mounds
>>>> of evidence spanning 150 years.  There is no "belief"
>>>> in evolution, it is simply a fact that those who have
>>>> studied the evidence accept.
>>>
>>> This is the lie that evolutionists tell and can never support.
>>> All you idiots do, is play bait & switch!  You claim man
>>> came from ape and then when asked to prove it,
>>> show us flowers from flowers and other such nonsense!
>>
>> Man did NOT come from apes. Man is an APE.
>
>You responded as I thought you would. The fact is,
>that evolutionists teach that man came from a type
>of ape that does not exist any more, so you are
>either ignorant, or a liar.

You are trying your best to distract readers from the fundamental lies
you tell. Ape is a group description, it applies to current apes as well
as prior species of ape.

>>> Prove particles to people!  And I mean PROVE IT!!!
>>
>> Evolution has nothing to do with the origins of life.
>
>Yes, it does and it was always taught that way.

You are lying, again.

>It is only in recent history, that evolutionists,
>being embarrassed by it, have tried to separate
>it out from evolution and you are now just
>trying to avoid dealing with the subject.

The only reason that you know that scientists don't know exactly how
life began on earth is because they said so. They don't make up just-so
stories like you do. It is clear to scientists that the mechanism of
evolution does not explain how life first began. It's a different set of
mechanisms that are much more difficult to figure out because so little
of the evidence remains. The evidence for evolution is overwhelming,
anyone with the slightest interest in learning can understand how it
works.

>Particles to people is what you believe and is
>what you call science and is what you say did
>happen, so PROVE IT to be true.

Your doctrines are already proven false. Why don't you address why you
keep repeating your false doctrines? Does your god really insist that
you lie?
Lady Godevo
2010-05-15 16:10:16 UTC
Permalink
On May 15, 7:25 am, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com>
wrote:
> On Fri, 14 May 2010 20:35:24 -0700 (PDT), Wexford <***@gmail.com>
> spake thusly:
>
> >>> But evolution is a fact that is supported by mounds
> >>> of evidence spanning 150 years.  There is no "belief"
> >>> in evolution, it is simply a fact that those who have
> >>> studied the evidence accept.
>
> >> This is the lie that evolutionists tell and can never support.
> >> All you idiots do, is play bait & switch!  You claim man
> >> came from ape and then when asked to prove it,
> >> show us flowers from flowers and other such nonsense!
>
> > Man did NOT come from apes. Man is an APE.
>
> You responded as I thought you would.  The fact is,
> that evolutionists teach that man came from a type
> of ape that does not exist any more, so you are
> either ignorant, or a liar.
>
> >> Prove particles to people!  And I mean PROVE IT!!!
>
> > Evolution has nothing to do with the origins of life.
>
> Yes, it does and it was always taught that way.
> It is only in recent history, that evolutionists,
> being embarrassed by it, have tried to separate
> it out from evolution and you are now just
> trying to avoid dealing with the subject.
>
> Particles to people is what you believe and is
> what you call science and is what you say did
> happen, so PROVE IT to be true.
>
> --
>
> Pastor Dave
>
> The following is part of my auto-rotating
> sig file and not part of the message body.
>
> The Last Days were in the first century:
>
> Romans 13:11-2
>
> 11) And that, knowing the time, that NOW
> it is high time to awake out of sleep:
> for NOW is our salvation nearer than when
> we believed.
> 12) The night is far spent, the day is
> AT HAND: let us therefore cast off the
> works of darkness, and let us put on
> the armor of light.

You are ignorant of the histroy here Dave. Evolution has always been
about the diversity of life - not the origins. Evolution explains the
diversity we see and the process of how that diveristy came about and
continues to occur. I was never taught that evolution attempts to
explain the origins of life, never, and I've been learning and doing
science for over 30 years. Please do not try and make one theory into
another. If you have a problem with particles to life, take it up
with the abiogesis people. Oh, wait, I'm sure their too busy actually
doing science to be bothered with the likes of you, hence you attempt
to attack others, nice try. How about this, I'm sure the evidence for
evolution has been shown to you repeatedly and you choose to ignore
it, so why don't you show us just ONE example of a fossil found out of
place (peer reviewed please, no quaks). Or how about showing a paper
that shows a genetic sequence that disproves nested hierarchy? Or
maybe just ONE paper showing any organism that uses completly
different proteins or doesn't use DNA or RNA? Or how about just one
human fossil found in the same stratta as dinosaurs? You won't and
the reason you won't is because they don't exsist because if they did,
the theory of evolution would fall and would have to either be
reworked to include and explain the anomilies or a completly different
theory would exist (which would still NOT be creationism - NOT
science). Try and be logical and not emotional for just a few
minutes. You might begin to see reality and learn a thing or two.

Kimberly
Pastor Dave
2010-05-15 16:14:49 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 15 May 2010 09:10:16 -0700 (PDT), Lady Godevo
<***@yahoo.com> spake thusly:


>On May 15, 7:25 am, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com>
>wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 14 May 2010 20:35:24 -0700 (PDT), Wexford <***@gmail.com>
>> spake thusly:
>>
>> >>> But evolution is a fact that is supported by mounds
>> >>> of evidence spanning 150 years.  There is no "belief"
>> >>> in evolution, it is simply a fact that those who have
>> >>> studied the evidence accept.
>>
>> >> This is the lie that evolutionists tell and can never support.
>> >> All you idiots do, is play bait & switch!  You claim man
>> >> came from ape and then when asked to prove it,
>> >> show us flowers from flowers and other such nonsense!
>>
>> > Man did NOT come from apes. Man is an APE.
>>
>> You responded as I thought you would.  The fact is,
>> that evolutionists teach that man came from a type
>> of ape that does not exist any more, so you are
>> either ignorant, or a liar.
>>
>> >> Prove particles to people!  And I mean PROVE IT!!!
>>
>> > Evolution has nothing to do with the origins of life.
>>
>> Yes, it does and it was always taught that way.
>> It is only in recent history, that evolutionists,
>> being embarrassed by it, have tried to separate
>> it out from evolution and you are now just
>> trying to avoid dealing with the subject.
>>
>> Particles to people is what you believe and is
>> what you call science and is what you say did
>> happen, so PROVE IT to be true.
>
>You are ignorant of the histroy here Dave. Evolution has always been
>about the diversity of life - not the origins.

See what I mean, folks?

Do some real research. I myself have posted it in usenet.
Look for it.


> Evolution explains the diversity of life...

There are six types of evolution. Something you aren't
even aware of. Look it up and get an education!

--

Pastor Dave

The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.

"Fortune favors the bold." - Virgil - The Aeneid
Lady Godevo
2010-05-15 16:25:56 UTC
Permalink
On May 15, 11:14 am, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com>
wrote:
> On Sat, 15 May 2010 09:10:16 -0700 (PDT), Lady Godevo
> <***@yahoo.com> spake thusly:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On May 15, 7:25 am, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com>
> >wrote:
>
> >> On Fri, 14 May 2010 20:35:24 -0700 (PDT), Wexford <***@gmail.com>
> >> spake thusly:
>
> >> >>> But evolution is a fact that is supported by mounds
> >> >>> of evidence spanning 150 years.  There is no "belief"
> >> >>> in evolution, it is simply a fact that those who have
> >> >>> studied the evidence accept.
>
> >> >> This is the lie that evolutionists tell and can never support.
> >> >> All you idiots do, is play bait & switch!  You claim man
> >> >> came from ape and then when asked to prove it,
> >> >> show us flowers from flowers and other such nonsense!
>
> >> > Man did NOT come from apes. Man is an APE.
>
> >> You responded as I thought you would.  The fact is,
> >> that evolutionists teach that man came from a type
> >> of ape that does not exist any more, so you are
> >> either ignorant, or a liar.
>
> >> >> Prove particles to people!  And I mean PROVE IT!!!
>
> >> > Evolution has nothing to do with the origins of life.
>
> >> Yes, it does and it was always taught that way.
> >> It is only in recent history, that evolutionists,
> >> being embarrassed by it, have tried to separate
> >> it out from evolution and you are now just
> >> trying to avoid dealing with the subject.
>
> >> Particles to people is what you believe and is
> >> what you call science and is what you say did
> >> happen, so PROVE IT to be true.
>
> >You are ignorant of the histroy here Dave.  Evolution has always been
> >about the diversity of life - not the origins.
>
> See what I mean, folks?
>
> Do some real research.  I myself have posted it in usenet.
> Look for it.
>
> > Evolution explains the diversity of life...
>
> There are six types of evolution.  Something you aren't
> even aware of.  Look it up and get an education!
>
> --
>
> Pastor Dave
>
> The following is part of my auto-rotating
> sig file and not part of the message body.
>
> "Fortune favors the bold." - Virgil - The Aeneid- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'm fairly certain that anything you posted, I would have to go and
verify elsewhere. As for different "types" of evolution, your wrong
and I dare say, a liar. There are parts of the theory that people
disagree about (you know, like southern baptists and methodists
disagree on biblical interpretation), but just like all christians
believe in christ for salvation, their is only one main theory of
evolution. For you to claim otherwise makes you either an idiot or a
liar. Please let us know which it is.

Kimberly
Pastor Dave
2010-05-15 23:45:08 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 15 May 2010 09:25:56 -0700 (PDT), Lady Godevo
<***@yahoo.com> spake thusly:


> As for different "types" of evolution, your wrong
> and I dare say, a liar.

She says without researching the issue, as is usual
for an evolutionist, since they put blinders on to
avoid whatever they don't want to see.

The truth is, there are six types of evolution, only one of which
is actual science. For you, I will list simplified definitions of
each type and will include simple links that include simply
put information, because I know that you're too stupid to look
before you claim that I'm full of crap (as you have just proved)
and that you won't understand anything stated in technical
terms and because you're certainly more interested in protecting
your religion of evolution and pretending to know something
about the sciences, than you are in the truth:

1) Cosmic Evolution - The origin of time, space and matter.
Some include the changes thru time.

http://www.tufts.edu/as/wright_center/cosmic_evolution/


2) Chemical Evolution - Origin of the elements that we have today.

http://library.thinkquest.org/C003763/index.php?page=origin03

3) Stellar Evolution - The origin and life of stars and planets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_evolution

4) Organic Evolution - The evolution of life from non-life
(also referred to as abiogenesis,
or spontaneous generation and
yes, those are the same thing)
and the development of various
kinds and species (and tries to
group abiogenesis and macro
and micro into one big lump.

http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/BIOEVOL.HTML


5) Macro Evolution - The origin of major kinds of life from
other major kinds. For example,
canids, plants, etc. and their supposed
development from other major kinds
(birds from non-birds, etc.).

http://www.nhm.ac.uk/hosted-sites/paleonet/paleo21/mevolution.html

6) Micro Evolution - Variations within the kinds. For example,
types of birds/reptiles/flowers, etc.,
meaning birds from birds, canids from
canids, plants from plants, etc..

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/_0_0/evoscales_02


Now while evolutionists, embarrassed by the lack of evidence
for macroevolution and being caught pulling their bait & switch
tactics (claiming macro is proved and then when challenged,
stating examples of micro), have tried two different tactics to
get away from their own problem:

1) Claim that Creationists invented the word "macroevolution".
In reality, it was an evolutionist who coined that phrase.
Even "Talk Origins" says this... "Antievolutionists argue
against macroevolution so loudly that some people think
they invented the term in order to dismiss evolution.
But this is not true".

2) Redefine macroevolution to include microevolution and
then claim that macroevolution is proved, while showing
examples of microevolution. It is extremely humorous
to watch evolutionists try to pull this maneuver, considering
that they preach true macro first and that we have watched
the definition change on their web sites. I myself have
posted the two one under the other before! :) In other
words, while "macroevolution" means "above the level
of species", evolutionists who know they can't prove macro,
are now trying to redefine it to be, "at or above the level
of species". In other words, they are trying to include
micro in with macro. Note that the key word in the
definition at the "Talk Origins" site (a propaganda site)
is the word "today" and is not the same definition that
was always there...

"In evolutionary biology today, macroevolution is used
to refer to any evolutionary change at or above the
level of species."

And of course, they go on to give examples of microevolution
as supposed proof of macroevolution. <chuckle>

And note in the link I provided above, it says "above"
the level of species, as do many actual scientific sites,
proving what a evolution propaganda site Talk.Origins is!

And what is also extremely funny, is watching evolutionists
in these forums pretend to now the involved sciences while
assuming that a Creationist (especially me, with the title of
"pastor") doesn't know anything about it and that they can
get away with pretending to know, by pasting in web links
to information that they don't even understand and when
challenged on said information and forced into a detailed
discussion about the information that they pasted in and
they have to come up with something in their own words,
they run away at light speed, snipping the facts, hurling
insults behind them as they run away, then going into
other threads and talking about how the Creationist denies
"real science" and ran away. Bawahahaha!

The truth is, only one of the six types of evolution qualifies
as "science", since it is the only one that has had direct
observation and can be tested with repeatable results.

And while evolutionists try to redefine science, claiming
that "inferred information from indirect observation" is
somehow proof of their beliefs, the fact is that no such
thing is true! Science ABSOLUTELY REQUIRES that one
f the following two be true, in order to be true science:

1) Direct observation.

2) Testing with repeatable results that show what is claimed.

And in fact, for another example, spontaneous generation
was disproved in the 19th century. So what do evolutionists
do when embarrassed by the fact that they got their idea
from believing that life springs up by itself from rotting meat
(and they ridicule creationists?)? They now try to redefine
abiogenesis and claim it isn't the same thing as spontaneous
generation, even though those who are actually educated in
the sciences (which does not include news group wannabees)
know that it is indeed the same thing an it is dishonest, period!
And they show this dishonesty loud and clear, especially when
I post proof that it is one and the same thing from a scientific
dictionary and their response, instead of acknowledging this
fact, is to snip it (as if that means that the previous message
with the information in it has been erased from all of usenet
and everyone's minds) out of their replies and start launching
personal attacks on me. Yea, you people are real science buffs!

Hahaha!!! <chuckle>


> ...there is only one main theory of evolution.

You know nothing and prove it with each post.

The truth is, that you assumed that I know nothing,
when in fact, unlike you, I am well acquainted with
the various involved sciences and am capable of a
detailed discussion of them, using my own words.

And I also know a b*llsh*tt*er when I see one and
you definitely are one! So don't even bother trying
to pretend that you're ready for that and that you're
capable of that, when we both know you're not and
that your "education" of these subjects comes from
nothing more than hanging around news groups
and reading what others who are just like you say
(which is the blind leading the blind) and some
web links that they post, that you don't even really
understand and then pretending that that equals
a proper education in the sciences, because you
can't fool me now and will only make yourself look
even more foolish and these "discussions" always,
always end the same way! With the evolutionist
being revealed as a pretender and running away
hurling insults behind them! That is why I don't
even bother getting involved any more at that level
and just leave them to their own fodder long before
it gets to that stage! I know just by their ignorance
of and then denial of them after being told what
they are, that the person (that includes you) is a
pretender, plain and simple, period!

So you have fun on your own! I have given you
the information. Any further denials of it does not
make you look smart. Rather, it makes you look
like a biased idiot, who doesn't care what the facts
are, because she is going to deny them no matter
what, because she doesn't like them and not because
they aren't true, since I proved that they are and
I won't waste my time with such deceiving people!

And so now we are done! :)

--

Pastor Dave

The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.

"Fear does not have any special power unless you
empower it by submitting to it." - Les Brown
Ken
2010-05-16 00:19:06 UTC
Permalink
On May 15, 4:45 pm, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com>
wrote:
> On Sat, 15 May 2010 09:25:56 -0700 (PDT), Lady Godevo
> <***@yahoo.com> spake thusly:
>
> > As for different "types" of evolution, your wrong
> > and I dare say, a liar.
>
> She says without researching the issue, as is usual
> for an evolutionist, since they put blinders on to
> avoid whatever they don't want to see.
>
> The truth is, there are six types of evolution, only one of which
> is actual science. >

Oh really?
Saz who?
Some other fool you found and CCPed?

> So you have fun on your own!  I have given you
> the information.  Any further denials of it does not
> make you look smart.  Rather, it makes you look
> like a biased idiot, who doesn't care what the facts
> are, because she is going to deny them no matter
> what, because she doesn't like them and not because
> they aren't true, since I proved that they are and
> I won't waste my time with such deceiving people!
>
> And so now we are done! :)

> Pastor Dave

Far from it, FOOL
You failed to mention the "evolution" of the automobile, the
"evolution" of atomic energy, the "evolution" of the PC, the
cellphone, space flight, aviation, warfare and almost every other
human endeavor, past and present that you might want to label as
"evolution"
Free Lunch
2010-05-15 17:50:41 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 15 May 2010 12:14:49 -0400, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @
tampabay.rr.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:

>On Sat, 15 May 2010 09:10:16 -0700 (PDT), Lady Godevo
><***@yahoo.com> spake thusly:
>
>
>>On May 15, 7:25 am, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 14 May 2010 20:35:24 -0700 (PDT), Wexford <***@gmail.com>
>>> spake thusly:
>>>
>>> >>> But evolution is a fact that is supported by mounds
>>> >>> of evidence spanning 150 years.  There is no "belief"
>>> >>> in evolution, it is simply a fact that those who have
>>> >>> studied the evidence accept.
>>>
>>> >> This is the lie that evolutionists tell and can never support.
>>> >> All you idiots do, is play bait & switch!  You claim man
>>> >> came from ape and then when asked to prove it,
>>> >> show us flowers from flowers and other such nonsense!
>>>
>>> > Man did NOT come from apes. Man is an APE.
>>>
>>> You responded as I thought you would.  The fact is,
>>> that evolutionists teach that man came from a type
>>> of ape that does not exist any more, so you are
>>> either ignorant, or a liar.
>>>
>>> >> Prove particles to people!  And I mean PROVE IT!!!
>>>
>>> > Evolution has nothing to do with the origins of life.
>>>
>>> Yes, it does and it was always taught that way.
>>> It is only in recent history, that evolutionists,
>>> being embarrassed by it, have tried to separate
>>> it out from evolution and you are now just
>>> trying to avoid dealing with the subject.
>>>
>>> Particles to people is what you believe and is
>>> what you call science and is what you say did
>>> happen, so PROVE IT to be true.
>>
>>You are ignorant of the histroy here Dave. Evolution has always been
>>about the diversity of life - not the origins.
>
>See what I mean, folks?
>
>Do some real research. I myself have posted it in usenet.
>Look for it.
>
Dave, you have a habit of posting utter nonsense. We have no reason to
ever believe any of your unsubstantiated claims.
>
>> Evolution explains the diversity of life...
>
>There are six types of evolution. Something you aren't
>even aware of. Look it up and get an education!

Says a man who worships his own ignorance and lies.
James A. Donald
2010-05-13 21:02:21 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 May 2010 04:13:51 -0700 (PDT), Sound of Trumpet
<***@dcemail.com> wrote:

>
> The Effect of Darwinism on Morality and Christianity
>
> by Jerry Bergman, Ph.D.
>
>
> It sometimes is claimed that one can be both a Darwinist and a
> Christian (Miller). Others argue that religion and Darwinism are
> incompatible because they are separate fields that should not be
> intermixed (Gould). In fact, the Darwinism worldview leads directly to
> certain clear moral and religious teachings about the origin, purpose,
> and ultimate meaning of life that are diametrically opposed to the
> Christian, Jewish, and Islamic faiths.

Well if they are opposed the Islamic faiths, must be pretty good.

> can in good conscience say at one moment that they do not deal
> with God or religion, and then in the next breath make sweeping
> pronouncements about the purposelessness of the cosmos (Johnson, p.
> 118).

Cosmos is purposeless, living creatures are not. Both the
purposefullness of living creatures, and the purposelessness of the
cosmos, follow straightforwardly from Darwinism.

From the purposefullness of living creatures, we can deduce a moral
order, but it is necessarily going to look like the Randian concept of
virtue - virtue as selfishness, and selfishness as a virtue, or like
the very similar classic Greek concept of virtue - virtue as
manliness, and the cultivation of one's own excellence.

In the concept of morality that follows from Darwinism, faith hope and
charity are down the bottom of the list, pretty close the
corresponding vices - wishful thinking, imprudence, and allowing
oneself to be victimized. Avenging oneself on those that have wronged
one is pretty near the top, as is paying one's just debts.
Uncle Vic
2010-05-14 05:25:57 UTC
Permalink
One fine day in alt.atheism, Sound of Trumpet
<***@dcemail.com> wrote:

> Subject: Why do so many people believe the pessimistic, nihilistic,
> and depressive Darwinist view?

Because Darwin was right.

--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
"The Bible talks about the first rainbow after the Great Flood, and we see
rainbows in the sky today. This is proof of the divinity of Jesus Christ
and the existence of God." - Zacharias Mulletstein
Lady Godevo
2010-05-15 00:58:24 UTC
Permalink
On May 14, 6:24 am, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com>
wrote:
> On Thu, 13 May 2010 23:28:54 -0700 (PDT), ***@yahoo.com spake
> thusly:
>
> >well Dave , I know of no one in the science community that could be
> >considered a follower of Darwin or his theories. Darwin published in
> >1859 or so, got some things right , but there was a lot he didnt know.
> >Biology has moved on and the Theory of Evolution is now the current
> >theory in biology.
>
> Note the carefully worded response, folks.  Mark thinks he can
> slither around the obvious and at the same time, pretend that
> he actually knows "the scientific community".  <chuckle>
>
> >Destroying the entire universe because your creation took something
> >they were told not to touch seems excessive. Especially when God knew
> >it was going to happen. Not controlling his angels, and letting them
> >breed with humans , requiring the killing of everyone (-8) also seems
> >a bit lax. People keep comparing God to a loving parent, but I know of
> >no parent that kills a bunch of kids for teasing, or who drowns his
> >kids because they disobayed him.  Except for a few psychos of course,
> >is God a psycho ?
>
> Note the ignorance of the atheist, folks.  Note the arrogance.
> This is typical of an atheist.  To them, it's all about them and
> lining up with their way of looking at things, through their
> willing ignorance.
>
> For example, God didn't "wipe out the entire universe because
> His creation took something they were told not to touch",
> nor is anything else this willingly ignorant atheist said accurate.
>
> But what does he care?
>
> >Who said I was a evolutionist ?
> >Who said I was a creationist ?
>
> You are not a creationist and that leaves evolutionist.
> But sometimes evolutionists are stupid enough to try
> to claim that they are neither.  <chuckle>
>
> >Christians often claim a moral superiority by saying Gods laws are an
> >absolute morality, but then they also claim free will ability to
> >ignore them, and you can always repent later. That means that you can
> >be a murdering, lying, cheating rapist for most of your life, repent
> >on your death bed and go directly to heaven. That shows a really
> >understanding God , who really doesnt give a crap about real peoples
> >lives.
>
> Note the description that atheists wish were true.
> Of course, for the atheist, they're free to do what
> they want, because there is no one to answer to.
>
> >Science today doesnt consider the supernatural, so to anyone doing
> >science any God is irrelevant. How hard is that to understand.
>
> Note the complete stupidity of the atheist/evolutionist.
> They actually want us to believe that science cannot
> consider the supernatural, when nothing could be
> further from the truth.  They actually think that it's
> "scientific" to believe that life came from non-life,
> all by itself, even though every bit of science that
> we know says its impossible and that it's "scientific"
> to deny creation, even though they know for a fact
> that things that are infinitely less complex that they
> see every day, required creation by man, let alone
> by God.  <chuckle>
>
> >Look at the progress that has been made once God is put away from
> >science research. The dark ages are a lesson to those who can see
> >it.
>
> This is how stupid the atheist is, folks.  The truth is,
> that most of the major branches of science were
> invented by creationists and our major centers of
> learning were established by Christians and Christian
> organizations and many of the professors were
> in fact ministers.  And that is when science began
> to move forward, unlike in atheist nations, where
> science was stifled.
>
> But hey, let's look at it! :)
>
> Are the Atheists Right?
>
> The atheists...
>
> They love to tell you how Christians prevent science.
> Harvard, Yale, etc., were all set up by six day, Bible
> believing Creationists for the advancement of science.
>
> They love to tell you how the church was after those
> who believed the Earth was round.  In reality, it was
> "scientists", who like them, could never admit they
> were wrong.
>
> They love to tell you how Christianity has taken
> more lives than anything else.  This is NOT TRUE!
> Atheistic nations have caused more deaths than
> any nation that was faithful to Christ!
>
> 1) It is not "Christian" to murder people because
>     they do not believe in Christ as Savior.
>
> 2) Stop looking at what fallible man does and then
>    turn around and blame Christianity.  Man killing
>    people and doing it in the name of Christ, does
>    not mean that there is a problem with Christianity.
>    It means that there is a problem with man.
>
> The atheists, who are and have to be evolutionists,
> love to ask the following question...
>
> "If there's a God, how come there is so many bad things
>  happening in the world?".  If you want to know the answer
>  to that, why don't you look in the mirror?  Man loves to do
>  evil and then blame God for the results!  Here is the whole
>  issue, summed up, because you see, the atheist actually
>  likes to ask a question that has a "no win" situation.
>  Let me explain...
>
> 1) If God allows man to do what man decides to do,
>     that is called "free will" and the atheist complains.
>     Yet, if God stopped all evil from happening, then
>     man (if he could), would point his finger at God
>     and say, "If you loved me, you would let me make
>     my own decisions and learn from my own mistakes!".
>
> 2) If God allows man to make his own decisions and
>     his own mistakes, man points at God and says,
>     "If you really are God, how can you allow all of
>      this evil to exist?!".
>
> You see what I mean?  The atheist asks a rigged question
> and tries to stack the deck.  Thus, his/her question is not
> honest to begin with!
>
> As far as Creation and evolution, they love to say the following...
>
> "Creation is NOT science and no REAL scientist believes
>  in Creation!  It does not offer any testable theory!"
>
> They also love to compare it to gravity, yet, Sir Isaac Newton
> was a six day Creationist!
>
> They also love to say that if you don't believe in evolution
> as a scientific fact, how do you explain using your computer,
> which is based on evolutionary science?
>
> Huh?!  That isn't anywhere NEAR being true!  It is NOT based
> on "evolutionary science", nor is evolution even science.
>
> In fact, the inventors of computer science and electronics,
> were six day Creationists!
>
> The next time someone tells you that "Creation scientists are not
> real scientists", you provide them with this message, which shows
> that not only was the founder of the scientific method a creationist,
> but many of the branches of science, were invented by creationists,
> who all believed in a literal six day creation.  To deny evolution is
> not to deny God, nor nature, nor science.  In fact, to deny evolution,
> is to uphold science, the truth of God and the nature that God
> created.  And the greatest scientists in the world knew that fact.
> In fact, the greatest scientific philosopher of all time, Dr. Karl
> Popper, said that evolution is not a law, nor a theory and that
> it doesn't even rise to the level of an hypothesis.  He said it is
> nothing more than a metaphysical research program.
>
> Here is some information, for those interested in THE TRUTH...
>
> From: The Root of the Problem - Dr. James Kennedy
>
> WHAT IS TRUE?
>
> Let us take a little deeper look. First of all, who invented science?
> It was Francis Bacon, who is credited with having been the inventor
> of the scientific method, that combination of induction and deduction,
> of hypothesis and proof (empirical proof).  Bacon was a devout
> Christian. He believed in God.  He believed in Christ, he believed
> in the Bible, and he believed in Creation.  He said that God had
> given us two books.  He has given us the book of nature to
> understand the world, and the book of Scriptures-and we are to
> read both of them, said the founder of science. Wasn't a Christian?
> Hardly.
>
> Who was the greatest scientist that ever lived?  A poll taken of
> scientists just a few years ago concluded that the greatest scientist
> that ever lived was Sir Isaac Newton.  If you read a list of the things
> that he discovered, it is awesome!  The mathematical laws of gravity
> are just one piece of that huge puzzle from this gigantic intellect.
> He was, also, among other things, the co-discoverer of calculus.
> Sir Isaac Newton.  Newton believed in God, he believed in Christ,
> he believed in the Bible, and he believed in creation.  To the utter
> chagrin of modern evolutionary scientists, he wrote more books
> on theology than he did on science.  He still became the greatest
> scientist that has ever lived, according TO THEM.
>
> CHRISTIAN  SCIENTISTS
>
> If the scientific method was invented by a Christian and the greatest
> scientist that ever lived was a Christian, what about the people that
> gave us all of the various branches of science?  Who were they?
> Let me tell you about them.  They were all men that believed in God,
> believed in Christ, believed in the Bible, and believed in creation.
> Not an evolutionist among them.  Who were they:
>
> The inventor of Antiseptic Surgery was Joseph Lister,
> who was all of the above.
>
> Bacteriology - Louis Pasteur - all of the above.
>
> Calculus - Sir Isaac Newton, as I've said.
>
> Celestial Mechanics - Johann Kepler, who said that science
> was thinking God's thoughts after Him.
>
> Chemistry - Robert Boyle, who left a large sum of money
> in his will that a series of lectures should be taught in his
> university in England defending the Christian faith.
> An unbeliever?  Hardly.
>
> Comparative Anatomy - Georges Cuvier.
>
> Computer Science - Charles Babbage.
>
> Dimensional Analysis - Lord Rayleigh.
>
> Dynamics - Isaac Newton.
>
> Electrodynamics - James Clerk Maxwell.
>
> Electromagnetics - Michael Faraday, who had about twenty-two
> honorary doctorates.  He was being given a huge award by the
> king at a banquet on a Wednesday night.  After the banquet,
> the people talked for a while, and then he was called up to
> receive his award, and they found that he had slipped out
> to go to prayer meeting.  That is what you would have done,
> isn't it?  After all, what is an award from the king compared
> to worshiping God?
>
> Electronics - Ambrose Fleming.
> ...
>
> read more »

And while all the people you mentioned were great scientists and
christians, they also NEVER allowed God into their theories. They
NEVER hit a wall and said, well god did it because the bible says so.
If that were the case, we might very well still think the earth was
the center of the universe and flat and that a magical ether
surrounded it. Good scientists stick to the scientific method which
by it's very nature does NOT include anything supernatural or
metaphysical, including God. As for their being only atheists or
creationist, you are so wrong it's hard to imagine. I take on faith
that God exists and choose to follow the moral teachings of the
bible(not the literal interpretation, which by the way,most sane
people haven't followed since the 1800's). I accept the facts of
evolution based on the mounds of evidence supporting it. The two are
not incompatible and for you to assume they are is arrogant and
prideful.

Kimberly
Wexford
2010-05-15 03:54:04 UTC
Permalink
On May 14, 8:58 pm, Lady Godevo <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On May 14, 6:24 am, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com>
> wrote:
>

Balderdash snipped

***********************************************

> And while all the people you mentioned were great scientists and
> christians, they also NEVER allowed God into their theories.  They
> NEVER hit a wall and said, well god did it because the bible says so.
> If that were the case, we might very well still think the earth was
> the center of the universe and flat and that a magical ether
> surrounded it.  Good scientists stick to the scientific method which
> by it's very nature does NOT include anything supernatural or
> metaphysical, including God.  As for their being only atheists or
> creationist, you are so wrong it's hard to imagine.  I take on faith
> that God exists and choose to follow the moral teachings of the
> bible(not the literal interpretation, which by the way,most sane
> people haven't followed since the 1800's).  I accept the facts of
> evolution based on the mounds of evidence supporting it.  The two are
> not incompatible and for you to assume they are is arrogant and
> prideful.
>
> Kimberly

Well said. I have a friend at work who is a scientist (PhD,
Northwestern), who believes quite literally in the Bible, six day
creation, etc. He knows it's nuts, but he's obsessed with it. He never
talks religion at work. I only know about his religious beliefs
because I overheard him in a discussion with a fellow believer at
lunch. People have a wonderful capacity for compartmentalizing their
thinking. You'll note, almost all the scientists referenced by the
Fundy, lived in the 18th and 19th centuries, when religion was much
more pervasive and people were much more thoroughly indoctrinated than
now. Life then was a lot more uncertain, as well, in the age before
antibiotics and open heart surgery. Belief in a merciful God (or fear
of an unmerciful one) could be both a great palliative and great
inspiration. For myself. I'm not always certain about the moral
teachings of the Bible, but there is a lot to be said for the Sermon
on the Mount, and the general spirit and letter of Christ's teaching,
none of which is incompatible with science. I can imagine a the same
humane thinking that ordered people to love their neighbors as
themselves, telling the ardent Fundy, "leave thoughts of evolution to
the scientists, and now go do your job, plow the field, plant the
wheat and pray God for rain."
Pastor Dave
2010-05-15 12:29:51 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 14 May 2010 20:54:04 -0700 (PDT), Wexford <***@gmail.com>
spake thusly:


> Balderdash snipped

Thank you for showing what an intentional liar you are,
which you did by snipping all of the data about these
great scientists, who invented the scientific method
and most of the major branches of science and who
believed in the Bible and a six day creation.

You thin that because you don't want to hear something,
that makes it untrue. And you think that your religion
is true, just because you want to lie and claim that it's
science, when it is no such thing.

--

Pastor Dave

The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.

"Who's more foolish? The fool, or the fool
who follows him?" - Obi Wan Kenobe
Free Lunch
2010-05-15 12:49:23 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 15 May 2010 08:29:51 -0400, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @
tampabay.rr.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:

>On Fri, 14 May 2010 20:54:04 -0700 (PDT), Wexford <***@gmail.com>
>spake thusly:
>
>
>> Balderdash snipped
>
>Thank you for showing what an intentional liar you are,
>which you did by snipping all of the data about these
>great scientists, who invented the scientific method
>and most of the major branches of science and who
>believed in the Bible and a six day creation.

I doubt that you have evidence that more than a handful of these people
believed in a literal six-day creation. Of course it is quite certain
that none of them, if they knew what scientists know now would accept
the false teaching of six-day creation. That is doctrine spread by liars
and accepted by fools. The whole universe tells us that six-day creation
is false and that those who preach it are calling God a trickster, a
liar.

>You thin that because you don't want to hear something,
>that makes it untrue. And you think that your religion
>is true, just because you want to lie and claim that it's
>science, when it is no such thing.

You are proud of your ignorance and will never change it. You have
nothing to offer but your false interpretation of a religious scripture
that is full of errors.
Pastor Dave
2010-05-15 12:27:54 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 14 May 2010 17:58:24 -0700 (PDT), Lady Godevo
<***@yahoo.com> spake thusly:


>On May 14, 6:24 am, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com>
>wrote:
>> On Thu, 13 May 2010 23:28:54 -0700 (PDT), ***@yahoo.com spake
>> thusly:
>>
>> >well Dave , I know of no one in the science community that could be
>> >considered a follower of Darwin or his theories. Darwin published in
>> >1859 or so, got some things right , but there was a lot he didnt know.
>> >Biology has moved on and the Theory of Evolution is now the current
>> >theory in biology.
>>
>> Note the carefully worded response, folks.  Mark thinks he can
>> slither around the obvious and at the same time, pretend that
>> he actually knows "the scientific community".  <chuckle>
>>
>> >Destroying the entire universe because your creation took something
>> >they were told not to touch seems excessive. Especially when God knew
>> >it was going to happen. Not controlling his angels, and letting them
>> >breed with humans , requiring the killing of everyone (-8) also seems
>> >a bit lax. People keep comparing God to a loving parent, but I know of
>> >no parent that kills a bunch of kids for teasing, or who drowns his
>> >kids because they disobayed him.  Except for a few psychos of course,
>> >is God a psycho ?
>>
>> Note the ignorance of the atheist, folks.  Note the arrogance.
>> This is typical of an atheist.  To them, it's all about them and
>> lining up with their way of looking at things, through their
>> willing ignorance.
>>
>> For example, God didn't "wipe out the entire universe because
>> His creation took something they were told not to touch",
>> nor is anything else this willingly ignorant atheist said accurate.
>>
>> But what does he care?
>>
>> >Who said I was a evolutionist ?
>> >Who said I was a creationist ?
>>
>> You are not a creationist and that leaves evolutionist.
>> But sometimes evolutionists are stupid enough to try
>> to claim that they are neither.  <chuckle>
>>
>> >Christians often claim a moral superiority by saying Gods laws are an
>> >absolute morality, but then they also claim free will ability to
>> >ignore them, and you can always repent later. That means that you can
>> >be a murdering, lying, cheating rapist for most of your life, repent
>> >on your death bed and go directly to heaven. That shows a really
>> >understanding God , who really doesnt give a crap about real peoples
>> >lives.
>>
>> Note the description that atheists wish were true.
>> Of course, for the atheist, they're free to do what
>> they want, because there is no one to answer to.
>>
>> >Science today doesnt consider the supernatural, so to anyone doing
>> >science any God is irrelevant. How hard is that to understand.
>>
>> Note the complete stupidity of the atheist/evolutionist.
>> They actually want us to believe that science cannot
>> consider the supernatural, when nothing could be
>> further from the truth.  They actually think that it's
>> "scientific" to believe that life came from non-life,
>> all by itself, even though every bit of science that
>> we know says its impossible and that it's "scientific"
>> to deny creation, even though they know for a fact
>> that things that are infinitely less complex that they
>> see every day, required creation by man, let alone
>> by God.  <chuckle>
>>
>> >Look at the progress that has been made once God is put away from
>> >science research. The dark ages are a lesson to those who can see
>> >it.
>>
>> This is how stupid the atheist is, folks.  The truth is,
>> that most of the major branches of science were
>> invented by creationists and our major centers of
>> learning were established by Christians and Christian
>> organizations and many of the professors were
>> in fact ministers.  And that is when science began
>> to move forward, unlike in atheist nations, where
>> science was stifled.
>>
>> But hey, let's look at it! :)
>>
>> Are the Atheists Right?
>>
>> The atheists...
>>
>> They love to tell you how Christians prevent science.
>> Harvard, Yale, etc., were all set up by six day, Bible
>> believing Creationists for the advancement of science.
>>
>> They love to tell you how the church was after those
>> who believed the Earth was round.  In reality, it was
>> "scientists", who like them, could never admit they
>> were wrong.
>>
>> They love to tell you how Christianity has taken
>> more lives than anything else.  This is NOT TRUE!
>> Atheistic nations have caused more deaths than
>> any nation that was faithful to Christ!
>>
>> 1) It is not "Christian" to murder people because
>>     they do not believe in Christ as Savior.
>>
>> 2) Stop looking at what fallible man does and then
>>    turn around and blame Christianity.  Man killing
>>    people and doing it in the name of Christ, does
>>    not mean that there is a problem with Christianity.
>>    It means that there is a problem with man.
>>
>> The atheists, who are and have to be evolutionists,
>> love to ask the following question...
>>
>> "If there's a God, how come there is so many bad things
>>  happening in the world?".  If you want to know the answer
>>  to that, why don't you look in the mirror?  Man loves to do
>>  evil and then blame God for the results!  Here is the whole
>>  issue, summed up, because you see, the atheist actually
>>  likes to ask a question that has a "no win" situation.
>>  Let me explain...
>>
>> 1) If God allows man to do what man decides to do,
>>     that is called "free will" and the atheist complains.
>>     Yet, if God stopped all evil from happening, then
>>     man (if he could), would point his finger at God
>>     and say, "If you loved me, you would let me make
>>     my own decisions and learn from my own mistakes!".
>>
>> 2) If God allows man to make his own decisions and
>>     his own mistakes, man points at God and says,
>>     "If you really are God, how can you allow all of
>>      this evil to exist?!".
>>
>> You see what I mean?  The atheist asks a rigged question
>> and tries to stack the deck.  Thus, his/her question is not
>> honest to begin with!
>>
>> As far as Creation and evolution, they love to say the following...
>>
>> "Creation is NOT science and no REAL scientist believes
>>  in Creation!  It does not offer any testable theory!"
>>
>> They also love to compare it to gravity, yet, Sir Isaac Newton
>> was a six day Creationist!
>>
>> They also love to say that if you don't believe in evolution
>> as a scientific fact, how do you explain using your computer,
>> which is based on evolutionary science?
>>
>> Huh?!  That isn't anywhere NEAR being true!  It is NOT based
>> on "evolutionary science", nor is evolution even science.
>>
>> In fact, the inventors of computer science and electronics,
>> were six day Creationists!
>>
>> The next time someone tells you that "Creation scientists are not
>> real scientists", you provide them with this message, which shows
>> that not only was the founder of the scientific method a creationist,
>> but many of the branches of science, were invented by creationists,
>> who all believed in a literal six day creation.  To deny evolution is
>> not to deny God, nor nature, nor science.  In fact, to deny evolution,
>> is to uphold science, the truth of God and the nature that God
>> created.  And the greatest scientists in the world knew that fact.
>> In fact, the greatest scientific philosopher of all time, Dr. Karl
>> Popper, said that evolution is not a law, nor a theory and that
>> it doesn't even rise to the level of an hypothesis.  He said it is
>> nothing more than a metaphysical research program.
>>
>> Here is some information, for those interested in THE TRUTH...
>>
>> From: The Root of the Problem - Dr. James Kennedy
>>
>> WHAT IS TRUE?
>>
>> Let us take a little deeper look. First of all, who invented science?
>> It was Francis Bacon, who is credited with having been the inventor
>> of the scientific method, that combination of induction and deduction,
>> of hypothesis and proof (empirical proof).  Bacon was a devout
>> Christian. He believed in God.  He believed in Christ, he believed
>> in the Bible, and he believed in Creation.  He said that God had
>> given us two books.  He has given us the book of nature to
>> understand the world, and the book of Scriptures-and we are to
>> read both of them, said the founder of science. Wasn't a Christian?
>> Hardly.
>>
>> Who was the greatest scientist that ever lived?  A poll taken of
>> scientists just a few years ago concluded that the greatest scientist
>> that ever lived was Sir Isaac Newton.  If you read a list of the things
>> that he discovered, it is awesome!  The mathematical laws of gravity
>> are just one piece of that huge puzzle from this gigantic intellect.
>> He was, also, among other things, the co-discoverer of calculus.
>> Sir Isaac Newton.  Newton believed in God, he believed in Christ,
>> he believed in the Bible, and he believed in creation.  To the utter
>> chagrin of modern evolutionary scientists, he wrote more books
>> on theology than he did on science.  He still became the greatest
>> scientist that has ever lived, according TO THEM.
>>
>> CHRISTIAN  SCIENTISTS
>>
>> If the scientific method was invented by a Christian and the greatest
>> scientist that ever lived was a Christian, what about the people that
>> gave us all of the various branches of science?  Who were they?
>> Let me tell you about them.  They were all men that believed in God,
>> believed in Christ, believed in the Bible, and believed in creation.
>> Not an evolutionist among them.  Who were they:
>>
>> The inventor of Antiseptic Surgery was Joseph Lister,
>> who was all of the above.
>>
>> Bacteriology - Louis Pasteur - all of the above.
>>
>> Calculus - Sir Isaac Newton, as I've said.
>>
>> Celestial Mechanics - Johann Kepler, who said that science
>> was thinking God's thoughts after Him.
>>
>> Chemistry - Robert Boyle, who left a large sum of money
>> in his will that a series of lectures should be taught in his
>> university in England defending the Christian faith.
>> An unbeliever?  Hardly.
>>
>> Comparative Anatomy - Georges Cuvier.
>>
>> Computer Science - Charles Babbage.
>>
>> Dimensional Analysis - Lord Rayleigh.
>>
>> Dynamics - Isaac Newton.
>>
>> Electrodynamics - James Clerk Maxwell.
>>
>> Electromagnetics - Michael Faraday, who had about twenty-two
>> honorary doctorates.  He was being given a huge award by the
>> king at a banquet on a Wednesday night.  After the banquet,
>> the people talked for a while, and then he was called up to
>> receive his award, and they found that he had slipped out
>> to go to prayer meeting.  That is what you would have done,
>> isn't it?  After all, what is an award from the king compared
>> to worshiping God?
>>
>> Electronics - Ambrose Fleming.
>> ...
>>
>> read more »
>
>And while all the people you mentioned were great scientists and
>christians, they also NEVER allowed God into their theories.

That's a lie. The theories began with, "In the beginning,
God created... and did so in six days" for many of these
great scientists. I already showed you this and the fact
that the great institutions here were set up by Bible
believing Christians, for the advancement of science.

And while you want to falsely call it just religion, it takes
a lot less faith to believe that a design took a designer,
than it does to say that nothing exploded all by itself
and here we are!

--

Pastor Dave

The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.

The Last Days were in the first century:

"A LITTLE WHILE, and ye shall not see me:
and again, A LITTLE WHILE and ye shall
see me, because I go to the Father."
- John 16:16
Free Lunch
2010-05-15 13:34:07 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 15 May 2010 08:27:54 -0400, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @
tampabay.rr.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:

>On Fri, 14 May 2010 17:58:24 -0700 (PDT), Lady Godevo
><***@yahoo.com> spake thusly:

...

>>And while all the people you mentioned were great scientists and
>>christians, they also NEVER allowed God into their theories.
>
>That's a lie. The theories began with, "In the beginning,
>God created... and did so in six days" for many of these
>great scientists. I already showed you this and the fact
>that the great institutions here were set up by Bible
>believing Christians, for the advancement of science.

You are amazingly dishonest Dave. The Bible is not a scientific theory.
It was not developed from evidence and the evidence that has been
gathered has shown that it is full of errors.

>And while you want to falsely call it just religion, it takes
>a lot less faith to believe that a design took a designer,
>than it does to say that nothing exploded all by itself
>and here we are!

You repeat the same, tired old lies. Why don't you have any new lies for
us to laugh at?
Lady Godevo
2010-05-15 16:17:03 UTC
Permalink
On May 15, 7:27 am, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com>
wrote:
> On Fri, 14 May 2010 17:58:24 -0700 (PDT), Lady Godevo
> <***@yahoo.com> spake thusly:
>
> >On May 14, 6:24 am, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com>
> >wrote:
> >> On Thu, 13 May 2010 23:28:54 -0700 (PDT), ***@yahoo.com spake
> >> thusly:
>
> >> >well Dave , I know of no one in the science community that could be
> >> >considered a follower of Darwin or his theories. Darwin published in
> >> >1859 or so, got some things right , but there was a lot he didnt know.
> >> >Biology has moved on and the Theory of Evolution is now the current
> >> >theory in biology.
>
> >> Note the carefully worded response, folks.  Mark thinks he can
> >> slither around the obvious and at the same time, pretend that
> >> he actually knows "the scientific community".  <chuckle>
>
> >> >Destroying the entire universe because your creation took something
> >> >they were told not to touch seems excessive. Especially when God knew
> >> >it was going to happen. Not controlling his angels, and letting them
> >> >breed with humans , requiring the killing of everyone (-8) also seems
> >> >a bit lax. People keep comparing God to a loving parent, but I know of
> >> >no parent that kills a bunch of kids for teasing, or who drowns his
> >> >kids because they disobayed him.  Except for a few psychos of course,
> >> >is God a psycho ?
>
> >> Note the ignorance of the atheist, folks.  Note the arrogance.
> >> This is typical of an atheist.  To them, it's all about them and
> >> lining up with their way of looking at things, through their
> >> willing ignorance.
>
> >> For example, God didn't "wipe out the entire universe because
> >> His creation took something they were told not to touch",
> >> nor is anything else this willingly ignorant atheist said accurate.
>
> >> But what does he care?
>
> >> >Who said I was a evolutionist ?
> >> >Who said I was a creationist ?
>
> >> You are not a creationist and that leaves evolutionist.
> >> But sometimes evolutionists are stupid enough to try
> >> to claim that they are neither.  <chuckle>
>
> >> >Christians often claim a moral superiority by saying Gods laws are an
> >> >absolute morality, but then they also claim free will ability to
> >> >ignore them, and you can always repent later. That means that you can
> >> >be a murdering, lying, cheating rapist for most of your life, repent
> >> >on your death bed and go directly to heaven. That shows a really
> >> >understanding God , who really doesnt give a crap about real peoples
> >> >lives.
>
> >> Note the description that atheists wish were true.
> >> Of course, for the atheist, they're free to do what
> >> they want, because there is no one to answer to.
>
> >> >Science today doesnt consider the supernatural, so to anyone doing
> >> >science any God is irrelevant. How hard is that to understand.
>
> >> Note the complete stupidity of the atheist/evolutionist.
> >> They actually want us to believe that science cannot
> >> consider the supernatural, when nothing could be
> >> further from the truth.  They actually think that it's
> >> "scientific" to believe that life came from non-life,
> >> all by itself, even though every bit of science that
> >> we know says its impossible and that it's "scientific"
> >> to deny creation, even though they know for a fact
> >> that things that are infinitely less complex that they
> >> see every day, required creation by man, let alone
> >> by God.  <chuckle>
>
> >> >Look at the progress that has been made once God is put away from
> >> >science research. The dark ages are a lesson to those who can see
> >> >it.
>
> >> This is how stupid the atheist is, folks.  The truth is,
> >> that most of the major branches of science were
> >> invented by creationists and our major centers of
> >> learning were established by Christians and Christian
> >> organizations and many of the professors were
> >> in fact ministers.  And that is when science began
> >> to move forward, unlike in atheist nations, where
> >> science was stifled.
>
> >> But hey, let's look at it! :)
>
> >> Are the Atheists Right?
>
> >> The atheists...
>
> >> They love to tell you how Christians prevent science.
> >> Harvard, Yale, etc., were all set up by six day, Bible
> >> believing Creationists for the advancement of science.
>
> >> They love to tell you how the church was after those
> >> who believed the Earth was round.  In reality, it was
> >> "scientists", who like them, could never admit they
> >> were wrong.
>
> >> They love to tell you how Christianity has taken
> >> more lives than anything else.  This is NOT TRUE!
> >> Atheistic nations have caused more deaths than
> >> any nation that was faithful to Christ!
>
> >> 1) It is not "Christian" to murder people because
> >>     they do not believe in Christ as Savior.
>
> >> 2) Stop looking at what fallible man does and then
> >>    turn around and blame Christianity.  Man killing
> >>    people and doing it in the name of Christ, does
> >>    not mean that there is a problem with Christianity.
> >>    It means that there is a problem with man.
>
> >> The atheists, who are and have to be evolutionists,
> >> love to ask the following question...
>
> >> "If there's a God, how come there is so many bad things
> >>  happening in the world?".  If you want to know the answer
> >>  to that, why don't you look in the mirror?  Man loves to do
> >>  evil and then blame God for the results!  Here is the whole
> >>  issue, summed up, because you see, the atheist actually
> >>  likes to ask a question that has a "no win" situation.
> >>  Let me explain...
>
> >> 1) If God allows man to do what man decides to do,
> >>     that is called "free will" and the atheist complains.
> >>     Yet, if God stopped all evil from happening, then
> >>     man (if he could), would point his finger at God
> >>     and say, "If you loved me, you would let me make
> >>     my own decisions and learn from my own mistakes!".
>
> >> 2) If God allows man to make his own decisions and
> >>     his own mistakes, man points at God and says,
> >>     "If you really are God, how can you allow all of
> >>      this evil to exist?!".
>
> >> You see what I mean?  The atheist asks a rigged question
> >> and tries to stack the deck.  Thus, his/her question is not
> >> honest to begin with!
>
> >> As far as Creation and evolution, they love to say the following...
>
> >> "Creation is NOT science and no REAL scientist believes
> >>  in Creation!  It does not offer any testable theory!"
>
> >> They also love to compare it to gravity, yet, Sir Isaac Newton
> >> was a six day Creationist!
>
> >> They also love to say that if you don't believe in evolution
> >> as a scientific fact, how do you explain using your computer,
> >> which is based on evolutionary science?
>
> >> Huh?!  That isn't anywhere NEAR being true!  It is NOT based
> >> on "evolutionary science", nor is evolution even science.
>
> >> In fact, the inventors of computer science and electronics,
> >> were six day Creationists!
>
> >> The next time someone tells you that "Creation scientists are not
> >> real scientists", you provide them with this message, which shows
> >> that not only was the founder of the scientific method a creationist,
> >> but many of the branches of science, were invented by creationists,
> >> who all believed in a literal six day creation.  To deny evolution is
> >> not to deny God, nor nature, nor science.  In fact, to deny evolution,
> >> is to uphold science, the truth of God and the nature that God
> >> created.  And the greatest scientists in the world knew that fact.
> >> In fact, the greatest scientific philosopher of all time, Dr. Karl
> >> Popper, said that evolution is not a law, nor a theory and that
> >> it doesn't even rise to the level of an hypothesis.  He said it is
> >> nothing more than a metaphysical research program.
>
> >> Here is some information, for those interested in THE TRUTH...
>
> >> From: The Root of the Problem - Dr. James Kennedy
>
> >> WHAT IS TRUE?
>
> >> Let us take a little deeper look. First of all, who invented science?
> >> It was Francis Bacon, who is credited with having been the inventor
> >> of the scientific method, that combination of induction and deduction,
> >> of hypothesis and proof (empirical proof).  Bacon was a devout
> >> Christian. He believed in God.  He believed in Christ, he believed
> >> in the Bible, and he believed in Creation.  He said that God had
> >> given us two books.  He has given us the book of nature to
> >> understand the world, and the book of Scriptures-and we are to
> >> read both of them, said the founder of science. Wasn't a Christian?
> >> Hardly.
>
> >> Who was the greatest scientist that ever lived?  A poll taken of
> >> scientists just a few years ago concluded that the greatest scientist
> >> that ever lived was Sir Isaac Newton.  If you read a list of the things
> >> that he discovered, it is awesome!  The mathematical laws of gravity
> >> are just one piece of that huge puzzle from this gigantic intellect.
> >> He was, also, among other things, the co-discoverer of calculus.
> >> Sir Isaac Newton.  Newton believed in God, he believed in Christ,
> >> he believed in the Bible, and he believed in creation.  To the utter
> >> chagrin of modern evolutionary scientists, he wrote more books
> >> on theology than he did on science.  He still became the greatest
> >> scientist that has ever lived, according TO THEM.
>
> >> CHRISTIAN  SCIENTISTS
>
> >> If the scientific method was invented by a Christian and the greatest
> >> scientist that ever lived was a Christian, what about the people that
> >> gave us all of the various branches of science?  Who were they?
> >> Let me tell you about them.  They were all men that believed in God,
> >> believed in Christ, believed in the Bible, and believed in creation.
> >> Not an evolutionist among them.  Who were they:
>
> >> The inventor of Antiseptic Surgery was Joseph Lister,
> >> who was all of the above.
>
> >> Bacteriology - Louis Pasteur - all of the above.
>
> >> Calculus - Sir Isaac Newton, as I've said.
>
> >> Celestial Mechanics - Johann Kepler, who said that science
> >> was thinking God's thoughts after Him.
>
> >> Chemistry - Robert Boyle, who left a large sum of money
> >> in his will that a series of lectures should be taught in his
> >> university in England defending the Christian faith.
> >> An unbeliever?  Hardly.
>
> >> Comparative Anatomy - Georges Cuvier.
>
> >> Computer Science - Charles Babbage.
>
> >> Dimensional Analysis - Lord Rayleigh.
>
> >> Dynamics - Isaac Newton.
>
> >> Electrodynamics - James Clerk Maxwell.
>
> >> Electromagnetics - Michael Faraday, who had about twenty-two
> >> honorary doctorates.  He was being given a huge award by the
> >> king at a banquet on a Wednesday night.  After the banquet,
> >> the people talked for a while, and then he was called up to
> >> receive his award, and they found that he had slipped out
> >> to go to prayer meeting.  That is what you would have done,
> >> isn't it?  After all, what is an award from the king compared
> >> to worshiping God?
>
> >> Electronics - Ambrose Fleming.
> >> ...
>
> >> read more »
>
> >And while all the people you mentioned were great scientists and
> >christians, they also NEVER allowed God into their theories.
>
> That's a lie.  The theories began with, "In the beginning,
> God created... and did so in six days" for many of these
> great scientists.  I already showed you this and the fact
> that the great institutions here were set up by Bible
> believing Christians, for the advancement of science.
>
> And while you want to falsely call it just religion, it takes
> a lot less faith to believe that a design took a designer,
> than it does to say that nothing exploded all by itself
> and here we are!
>
> --
>
> Pastor Dave
>
> The following is part of my auto-rotating
> sig file and not part of the message body.
>
> The Last Days were in the first century:
>
> "A LITTLE WHILE, and ye shall not see me:
>  and again, A LITTLE WHILE and ye shall
>  see me, because I go to the Father."
> - John 16:16

I don't lie my friend. Please reference any paper that any of those
scientist wrote that referenced the bible or the six day creation.
I'll eagerly await this information. As for faith, it requires no
faith to accept reality and the mountains of evidence for evolution.
The real question here is, why is your faith so weak that you feel it
necessary to deny reality? Is your faith so weak, that reality would
shatter it? If that's the case, you need to spend more time
increasing your faith rather than trying to diprove reality. Maybe
you should read and follow your bible instead of spending so much time
worried about what others are doing.

Kimberly
Brian Wraith
2010-05-15 16:38:34 UTC
Permalink
On 5/15/2010 9:17 AM, Lady Godevo wrote:
> On May 15, 7:27 am, Pastor Dave<newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com>
> wrote:
>> On Fri, 14 May 2010 17:58:24 -0700 (PDT), Lady Godevo
>> <***@yahoo.com> spake thusly:
>>
>>> On May 14, 6:24 am, Pastor Dave<newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 13 May 2010 23:28:54 -0700 (PDT), ***@yahoo.com spake
>>>> thusly:
>>
>>>>> well Dave , I know of no one in the science community that could be
>>>>> considered a follower of Darwin or his theories. Darwin published in
>>>>> 1859 or so, got some things right , but there was a lot he didnt know.
>>>>> Biology has moved on and the Theory of Evolution is now the current
>>>>> theory in biology.
>>
>>>> Note the carefully worded response, folks. Mark thinks he can
>>>> slither around the obvious and at the same time, pretend that
>>>> he actually knows "the scientific community".<chuckle>
>>
>>>>> Destroying the entire universe because your creation took something
>>>>> they were told not to touch seems excessive. Especially when God knew
>>>>> it was going to happen. Not controlling his angels, and letting them
>>>>> breed with humans , requiring the killing of everyone (-8) also seems
>>>>> a bit lax. People keep comparing God to a loving parent, but I know of
>>>>> no parent that kills a bunch of kids for teasing, or who drowns his
>>>>> kids because they disobayed him. Except for a few psychos of course,
>>>>> is God a psycho ?
>>
>>>> Note the ignorance of the atheist, folks. Note the arrogance.
>>>> This is typical of an atheist. To them, it's all about them and
>>>> lining up with their way of looking at things, through their
>>>> willing ignorance.
>>
>>>> For example, God didn't "wipe out the entire universe because
>>>> His creation took something they were told not to touch",
>>>> nor is anything else this willingly ignorant atheist said accurate.
>>
>>>> But what does he care?
>>
>>>>> Who said I was a evolutionist ?
>>>>> Who said I was a creationist ?
>>
>>>> You are not a creationist and that leaves evolutionist.
>>>> But sometimes evolutionists are stupid enough to try
>>>> to claim that they are neither.<chuckle>
>>
>>>>> Christians often claim a moral superiority by saying Gods laws are an
>>>>> absolute morality, but then they also claim free will ability to
>>>>> ignore them, and you can always repent later. That means that you can
>>>>> be a murdering, lying, cheating rapist for most of your life, repent
>>>>> on your death bed and go directly to heaven. That shows a really
>>>>> understanding God , who really doesnt give a crap about real peoples
>>>>> lives.
>>
>>>> Note the description that atheists wish were true.
>>>> Of course, for the atheist, they're free to do what
>>>> they want, because there is no one to answer to.
>>
>>>>> Science today doesnt consider the supernatural, so to anyone doing
>>>>> science any God is irrelevant. How hard is that to understand.
>>
>>>> Note the complete stupidity of the atheist/evolutionist.
>>>> They actually want us to believe that science cannot
>>>> consider the supernatural, when nothing could be
>>>> further from the truth. They actually think that it's
>>>> "scientific" to believe that life came from non-life,
>>>> all by itself, even though every bit of science that
>>>> we know says its impossible and that it's "scientific"
>>>> to deny creation, even though they know for a fact
>>>> that things that are infinitely less complex that they
>>>> see every day, required creation by man, let alone
>>>> by God.<chuckle>
>>
>>>>> Look at the progress that has been made once God is put away from
>>>>> science research. The dark ages are a lesson to those who can see
>>>>> it.
>>
>>>> This is how stupid the atheist is, folks. The truth is,
>>>> that most of the major branches of science were
>>>> invented by creationists and our major centers of
>>>> learning were established by Christians and Christian
>>>> organizations and many of the professors were
>>>> in fact ministers. And that is when science began
>>>> to move forward, unlike in atheist nations, where
>>>> science was stifled.
>>
>>>> But hey, let's look at it! :)
>>
>>>> Are the Atheists Right?
>>
>>>> The atheists...
>>
>>>> They love to tell you how Christians prevent science.
>>>> Harvard, Yale, etc., were all set up by six day, Bible
>>>> believing Creationists for the advancement of science.
>>
>>>> They love to tell you how the church was after those
>>>> who believed the Earth was round. In reality, it was
>>>> "scientists", who like them, could never admit they
>>>> were wrong.
>>
>>>> They love to tell you how Christianity has taken
>>>> more lives than anything else. This is NOT TRUE!
>>>> Atheistic nations have caused more deaths than
>>>> any nation that was faithful to Christ!
>>
>>>> 1) It is not "Christian" to murder people because
>>>> they do not believe in Christ as Savior.
>>
>>>> 2) Stop looking at what fallible man does and then
>>>> turn around and blame Christianity. Man killing
>>>> people and doing it in the name of Christ, does
>>>> not mean that there is a problem with Christianity.
>>>> It means that there is a problem with man.
>>
>>>> The atheists, who are and have to be evolutionists,
>>>> love to ask the following question...
>>
>>>> "If there's a God, how come there is so many bad things
>>>> happening in the world?". If you want to know the answer
>>>> to that, why don't you look in the mirror? Man loves to do
>>>> evil and then blame God for the results! Here is the whole
>>>> issue, summed up, because you see, the atheist actually
>>>> likes to ask a question that has a "no win" situation.
>>>> Let me explain...
>>
>>>> 1) If God allows man to do what man decides to do,
>>>> that is called "free will" and the atheist complains.
>>>> Yet, if God stopped all evil from happening, then
>>>> man (if he could), would point his finger at God
>>>> and say, "If you loved me, you would let me make
>>>> my own decisions and learn from my own mistakes!".
>>
>>>> 2) If God allows man to make his own decisions and
>>>> his own mistakes, man points at God and says,
>>>> "If you really are God, how can you allow all of
>>>> this evil to exist?!".
>>
>>>> You see what I mean? The atheist asks a rigged question
>>>> and tries to stack the deck. Thus, his/her question is not
>>>> honest to begin with!
>>
>>>> As far as Creation and evolution, they love to say the following...
>>
>>>> "Creation is NOT science and no REAL scientist believes
>>>> in Creation! It does not offer any testable theory!"
>>
>>>> They also love to compare it to gravity, yet, Sir Isaac Newton
>>>> was a six day Creationist!
>>
>>>> They also love to say that if you don't believe in evolution
>>>> as a scientific fact, how do you explain using your computer,
>>>> which is based on evolutionary science?
>>
>>>> Huh?! That isn't anywhere NEAR being true! It is NOT based
>>>> on "evolutionary science", nor is evolution even science.
>>
>>>> In fact, the inventors of computer science and electronics,
>>>> were six day Creationists!
>>
>>>> The next time someone tells you that "Creation scientists are not
>>>> real scientists", you provide them with this message, which shows
>>>> that not only was the founder of the scientific method a creationist,
>>>> but many of the branches of science, were invented by creationists,
>>>> who all believed in a literal six day creation. To deny evolution is
>>>> not to deny God, nor nature, nor science. In fact, to deny evolution,
>>>> is to uphold science, the truth of God and the nature that God
>>>> created. And the greatest scientists in the world knew that fact.
>>>> In fact, the greatest scientific philosopher of all time, Dr. Karl
>>>> Popper, said that evolution is not a law, nor a theory and that
>>>> it doesn't even rise to the level of an hypothesis. He said it is
>>>> nothing more than a metaphysical research program.
>>
>>>> Here is some information, for those interested in THE TRUTH...
>>
>>>> From: The Root of the Problem - Dr. James Kennedy
>>
>>>> WHAT IS TRUE?
>>
>>>> Let us take a little deeper look. First of all, who invented science?
>>>> It was Francis Bacon, who is credited with having been the inventor
>>>> of the scientific method, that combination of induction and deduction,
>>>> of hypothesis and proof (empirical proof). Bacon was a devout
>>>> Christian. He believed in God. He believed in Christ, he believed
>>>> in the Bible, and he believed in Creation. He said that God had
>>>> given us two books. He has given us the book of nature to
>>>> understand the world, and the book of Scriptures-and we are to
>>>> read both of them, said the founder of science. Wasn't a Christian?
>>>> Hardly.
>>
>>>> Who was the greatest scientist that ever lived? A poll taken of
>>>> scientists just a few years ago concluded that the greatest scientist
>>>> that ever lived was Sir Isaac Newton. If you read a list of the things
>>>> that he discovered, it is awesome! The mathematical laws of gravity
>>>> are just one piece of that huge puzzle from this gigantic intellect.
>>>> He was, also, among other things, the co-discoverer of calculus.
>>>> Sir Isaac Newton. Newton believed in God, he believed in Christ,
>>>> he believed in the Bible, and he believed in creation. To the utter
>>>> chagrin of modern evolutionary scientists, he wrote more books
>>>> on theology than he did on science. He still became the greatest
>>>> scientist that has ever lived, according TO THEM.
>>
>>>> CHRISTIAN SCIENTISTS
>>
>>>> If the scientific method was invented by a Christian and the greatest
>>>> scientist that ever lived was a Christian, what about the people that
>>>> gave us all of the various branches of science? Who were they?
>>>> Let me tell you about them. They were all men that believed in God,
>>>> believed in Christ, believed in the Bible, and believed in creation.
>>>> Not an evolutionist among them. Who were they:
>>
>>>> The inventor of Antiseptic Surgery was Joseph Lister,
>>>> who was all of the above.
>>
>>>> Bacteriology - Louis Pasteur - all of the above.
>>
>>>> Calculus - Sir Isaac Newton, as I've said.
>>
>>>> Celestial Mechanics - Johann Kepler, who said that science
>>>> was thinking God's thoughts after Him.
>>
>>>> Chemistry - Robert Boyle, who left a large sum of money
>>>> in his will that a series of lectures should be taught in his
>>>> university in England defending the Christian faith.
>>>> An unbeliever? Hardly.
>>
>>>> Comparative Anatomy - Georges Cuvier.
>>
>>>> Computer Science - Charles Babbage.
>>
>>>> Dimensional Analysis - Lord Rayleigh.
>>
>>>> Dynamics - Isaac Newton.
>>
>>>> Electrodynamics - James Clerk Maxwell.
>>
>>>> Electromagnetics - Michael Faraday, who had about twenty-two
>>>> honorary doctorates. He was being given a huge award by the
>>>> king at a banquet on a Wednesday night. After the banquet,
>>>> the people talked for a while, and then he was called up to
>>>> receive his award, and they found that he had slipped out
>>>> to go to prayer meeting. That is what you would have done,
>>>> isn't it? After all, what is an award from the king compared
>>>> to worshiping God?
>>
>>>> Electronics - Ambrose Fleming.
>>>> ...
>>
>>>> read more »
>>
>>> And while all the people you mentioned were great scientists and
>>> christians, they also NEVER allowed God into their theories.
>>
>> That's a lie. The theories began with, "In the beginning,
>> God created... and did so in six days" for many of these
>> great scientists. I already showed you this and the fact
>> that the great institutions here were set up by Bible
>> believing Christians, for the advancement of science.
>>
>> And while you want to falsely call it just religion, it takes
>> a lot less faith to believe that a design took a designer,
>> than it does to say that nothing exploded all by itself
>> and here we are!
>>
>> --
>>
>> Pastor Dave
>>
>> The following is part of my auto-rotating
>> sig file and not part of the message body.
>>
>> The Last Days were in the first century:
>>
>> "A LITTLE WHILE, and ye shall not see me:
>> and again, A LITTLE WHILE and ye shall
>> see me, because I go to the Father."
>> - John 16:16
>
> I don't lie my friend. Please reference any paper that any of those
> scientist wrote that referenced the bible or the six day creation.

So, you substantiate your beliefs using the opinions of others instead
of presenting empirical evidence? I am confused Kimberly.

> I'll eagerly await this information. As for faith, it requires no
> faith to accept reality and the mountains of evidence for evolution.
> The real question here is, why is your faith so weak that you feel it
> necessary to deny reality? Is your faith so weak, that reality would

Faith is simply another word for naivete and is the domain of a lazy
mind. It takes a strong mind to stand apart from the opinions of the masses.


> shatter it? If that's the case, you need to spend more time
> increasing your faith rather than trying to diprove reality. Maybe

Increasing faith? Isn't that another way of saying we should just stop
thinking and rely upon the claims of others?

> you should read and follow your bible instead of spending so much time
> worried about what others are doing.

Why would anyone, in their right minds, blindly follow anything written
in any book by any human being or group of human beings? Again, this
seems far too lazy from my perspective. Following the Bible might be a
great way to "fit in" with the masses, but, and it should be obvious
from your participation in this group, atheists are not terribly
concerned with peer pressure or the approval of others.

For the most part, atheists prefer to think for themselves instead of
relying upon the words of others written in books. When such a book
claims to be the product of god, but yet provides absolutely no
empirical evidence to support said assertion, atheists tend to get a
little insulted. When theists suggest that we fall into line behind the
rest of the sheep and accept their claims, we usually ask you to come
back when you can produce empirical evidence. Some ask more politely
than others.
Free Lunch
2010-05-15 17:53:28 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 15 May 2010 09:17:03 -0700 (PDT), Lady Godevo
<***@yahoo.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:

>On May 15, 7:27 am, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com>
>wrote:


...

>> That's a lie.  The theories began with, "In the beginning,
>> God created... and did so in six days" for many of these
>> great scientists.  I already showed you this and the fact
>> that the great institutions here were set up by Bible
>> believing Christians, for the advancement of science.
>>
>> And while you want to falsely call it just religion, it takes
>> a lot less faith to believe that a design took a designer,
>> than it does to say that nothing exploded all by itself
>> and here we are!

...

>I don't lie my friend. Please reference any paper that any of those
>scientist wrote that referenced the bible or the six day creation.
>I'll eagerly await this information. As for faith, it requires no
>faith to accept reality and the mountains of evidence for evolution.
>The real question here is, why is your faith so weak that you feel it
>necessary to deny reality? Is your faith so weak, that reality would
>shatter it? If that's the case, you need to spend more time
>increasing your faith rather than trying to diprove reality. Maybe
>you should read and follow your bible instead of spending so much time
>worried about what others are doing.
>
>Kimberly

Of course you do not lie, but Pastor Dave, a man addicted to telling
lies, assumes that everyone is as dishonest as he is. He has no use for
science, for knowledge, for evidence. All he has is his own claims about
the Bible, based in superstition and ignorance. He doesn't seem willing
to ever publicly acknowledge that he is repeating falsehoods, no matter
how many times people have corrected him.
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